Presidential Poll 2020

[PaulS]

6 hours ago, JosephM said:

Well, while i don't have a conclusion of a cover-up of a fraudulent election here,  i do see that the Associated press is very capable of and does use propaganda. The AP is a powerful non-profit cooperative  published and may i say blindly  in many cases republished by more than 1,300 newspapers and broadcasters. The AP operates approximately 248 news bureaus in 99 countries. 

I don't disagree, but the AP is just one such 'conglomerate' when there are literally thousands and thousands of news agencies around the world - any one of which could report the evidence that Trump has to demonstrate that the he actually won the election in a landslide but that the Democrats stole the election.  That would not be hard to demonstrate and reflect in a single media article - if the facts actually existed.  But we all know they don't.

6 hours ago, JosephM said:

Trump may be delusional among other things but if one looks at mail in voting one may plainly see it is more subject to fraudulent voting than voting in person with a valid ID. Only a small percentage are caught and prosecuted but a Pew Pew report shows that it does happen regularly. Recounting ballots does little good for major fraud for a number of reasons because of differing laws in different states. I'm not saying Biden stole the Election or fraudulent votes caused him to win the swing states because I don't know. I'm just saying we need to look at it closer and make it more uniform and don't make it too easy to vote by not requiring enough ID and checks because some call it voter suppression.

And this is exactly what Trump plays on - a skerrick of truth that there is some voter fraud (as there is in all elections), but nothing, nothing, that even comes close to large scale fraud that saw this election stolen from Trump.  Trump's own Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency clearly stated that “There is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes or was in any way compromised.”  It was a secure election and the American people should have faith in that - except that doesn't suit Trump's narrative.  So, away we go.

I agree with any efforts to ensure elections are as secure as possible, but that's not what Trump was about here.  He was an extremist and didn't care about the facts.

6 hours ago, JosephM said:

Anyway, it water under the bridge.  What one thinks of the matter is fine with me but knowing people and organizations from my own personal experience i wouldn't easily dismiss some of the many conspiracy theories regardless of what the AP and its rebroadcast co-operatives repeat.

Just my 2 cents      

Unfortunately, what one thinks of the matter does have consequences, as you have seen.  When people irresponsibly spin stories of deceit and create division, there are consequences.  Sadly.

[PaulS]

13 hours ago, John Hunt said:

Looks certain today that he's going to go, after the Capitol riot/insurrection. But what he stands for, and he's given voice to, and constantly amplifies - the racism and fascism at the heart of what so many Americans actually think/believe, in their hearts - I think it will decades to undo that kind of damage. If it ever happens.  

Yes, finally after 2 months of fighting and crying that the election was fraudulent and stolen from him, finally after months of saying he will not concede, finally after 50 court cases were rejected or lost, finally after the Electoral College upheld the State's rights, finally after the Senate and Congress upheld the Constitution, finally after the Capitol was invaded and 5 people sadly are now dead, finally Trump says there will be a peaceful transition.

The hope I guess John is that 7 million people more outvoted those that voted for Trump and the Electoral College produced the same 'landslide' margin to Biden as when Trump got over the line in 2016.  I too think that such harm has been done to and even by the US during this 'Trump experiment', but let's hope the US and indeed the world can recover and improve from this point.  Let's hope.

[John Hunt]

"Perhaps they are seeing something the media doesn't report?  Perhaps free elections in the US are not as free as originally thought in schools or by past propaganda and many people are now realizing it?"

Comments like this really do need some kind of evidence, rather than relying on hearsay and conspiracy theories.

" i don't understand why Democrats are worried about a recount or challenges."

I don't see how they are. The Georgia count, for instance, went through three recounts. Under a Republican official, Brad Rraffensberger, who'd voted for Trump and contributed financially to his campaign. And with stood the pressure of an hour long phone call from the president to ""I just want to find 11,780 votes," - his words.

"The number of mail in ballots were soo great"

Of course they were. 350,000 Americans have unnecessarily died because of Covid. If the country had taken the right precautions at the right time, like countries in the east - South Korea, Taiwan etc...it should have been more like 5000. 

 

 

 

 

[JosephM]

16 hours ago, John Hunt said:

"Perhaps they are seeing something the media doesn't report?  Perhaps free elections in the US are not as free as originally thought in schools or by past propaganda and many people are now realizing it?"

Comments like this really do need some kind of evidence, rather than relying on hearsay and conspiracy theories.

" i don't understand why Democrats are worried about a recount or challenges."

I don't see how they are. The Georgia count, for instance, went through three recounts. Under a Republican official, Brad Rraffensberger, who'd voted for Trump and contributed financially to his campaign. And with stood the pressure of an hour long phone call from the president to ""I just want to find 11,780 votes," - his words.

"The number of mail in ballots were soo great"

Of course they were. 350,000 Americans have unnecessarily died because of Covid. If the country had taken the right precautions at the right time, like countries in the east - South Korea, Taiwan etc...it should have been more like 5000. 

 

John,

You have to look at deaths per million population and take other factors into consideration like density of population. Italy and the UK and others have more deaths per million population than the US. Were all their deaths unnecessary?

We are 12th in death rate per million population. Also alot of countries like China and Russia may not be reporting accurately. Austrailia is a different beast as its population  is spread out. except in a few big cities. NY , New Jersey and Mass which are tightly populated lead the US in deaths. I doubt anyone could have done better.

On voting its not the number of recounts that matter, its the legitamacy of the ballots. Matching signatures, and looking for duplicates , dead people voting, computer filled votes, etc.. Mail fraud is much easier than voting in person. 

Secondly if you think our elections are free to all  then why was 14 billion spent on the 2020 election. That's a record here. It takes big money to get elected. Money and propaganda and slant in the news determines the winner even if the votes are valid. We only have the appearance of free and fair elections in the US and we are also big in meddling in other countries elections.

[John Hunt]

Sure Joseph. (Btw I hope I'm getting this reply thing right, systems-wise). I do look at the figures per head of population,and take the kind of factors you're talking about into account.

Very broadly speaking, I figure that countries in the East, like South Korea, Vietnam, Taiwan, have outperformed countries in the west like the USA, UK, Italy etc by factors of 10.

Take Vietnam for instance. Coming up to 100 million population. They have a 1000 mile border with China. They have big cities...Hanoi is 8 million+.

They've had 3 dozen deaths (and experts don't seriously doubt the veracity of the figures). 

OK, it's an authoritarian state. I know a bit about this one though, because we have neighbors who went on a 3 week cycling holiday in Vietnam back in February. They were temperature checked every time they went into a restuarant or hotel, several times a day. Everyone wore face masks in public. Coming back to the UK, to Heathrow, they were staggered to be standing in queues with no social distancing or checks of any kind (and incredibly, that still seems to be the case).

And this wasn't "forced", in Vietnam - everyone was involved, committed, to keeping the virus out of the country.

So maybe the Vietnamese are just a bit like sheep? Doing what the government tells them? Personally, I think it has more to do with the communitarian nature of religion in the east. The family, neighbors, social units - they're important. Individual success - not so much so (or at least not if it's at the expense of the community).

So when it comes to  "I doubt anyone could have done better" I'm afraid I just can't see the rationale for that. And I think the UK record is disastrous - too little, too late. Which is why we have the highest death toll in Europe, and ambulances are queuing up outside the hospitals (and we have the advantage of being an island....we could have kept it out....).

And it's a bit of a giveaway that the big countries that are doing the worst - the US, UK, Brazil - all the presidents/PM's have come down with Covid as well, because they never really took it seriously enough - "it's a hoax", "it's like the flu", "it's going to go away", etc.

"its the legitamacy of the ballots" - not even going there....I've read/listened to a lot about the US election, and I don't know anyone who's genuinely serious, honest and knowledgable, Democrat or Republican, who is still peddling the "election was fraudulent" conspiracy theory.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Perhaps they are seeing something the media doesn't report?  Perhaps free elections in the US are not as free as originally thought in schools or by past propaganda and many people are now realizing it?"

Comments like this really do need some kind of evidence, rather than relying on hearsay and conspiracy theories.

" i don't understand why Democrats are worried about a recount or challenges."

I don't see how they are. The Georgia count, for instance, went through three recounts. Under a Republican official, Brad Rraffensberger, who'd voted for Trump and contributed financially to his campaign. And with stood the pressure of an hour long phone call from the president to ""I just want to find 11,780 votes," - his words.

"The number of mail in ballots were soo great"

Of course they were. 350,000 Americans have unnecessarily died because of Covid. If the country had taken the right precautions at the right time, like countries in the east - South Korea, Taiwan etc...it should have been more like 5000. 

 

 

 

 

[PaulS]

12 hours ago, JosephM said:I doubt anyone could have done better.

I doubt anyone could have done better.

It’s hard to imagine that the US was putting its best foot forward when it’s leader was deliberately ‘playing down’ the severity of the virus to the people, in conjunction with politicizing the wearing of masks and social distancing.  Could he have done better?  Absolutely.

[John Hunt]

Remember Trump's tweet "Liberate Michigan"? Encouraging protestors who opposed Covid restrictions? Two weeks later, armed demonstrators invaded the statehouse.

Trying to keep the churches open? Interesting that "Spanish flu" hit rural conservative areas worse, because priests encouraged everyone to come to church, take mass and spread the virus around. The Trump rallies had the same effect, "superspreader" events. Which is why many sensible people used mail ballots. Which is why Trump said they shouldn't be counted. It led to the line of argument "the election must have been rigged, look at how many tens of thousands of people came out to support Trump, Biden could only get dozens". And we end up with 70% or so of Republicans believing the election was fraudulent, for which there isn't a scrap of evidence, just rumor and hearsay. Which is why it was thrown out of 60 courts. But we end up with a divided country, with a good proportion of the population believing conspiracy fantasies.

I think it's hard to see how a leader could have done worse.

[John Hunt]

Thought I'd been following the US election closely, and that claims pf problems with mail-in ballots were just made by people who didn't really understand the process or didn't want to or were prepared to lie about it, so thought I'd double check; Here's a useful summary of who has actually been accused of fraud in the 2020 election, seems to be mostly Republicans -https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/voter-fraud-investigations-2020/2020/12/22/bdbe541c-42de-11eb-b0e4-0f182923a025_story.html

And a summary of the overall claims/rebuttals-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-55016029

The members of Election Infrastructure Government Coordinating Council (GCC) Executive Committee – Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) - released the following statement:

“The November 3rd election was the most secure in American history....."

The big, attempted fraud was by the President; quoting from a phone call to the Georgia Secretary  of State (Republican) “I just want to find 11,780 votes". Who knows how many similar calls he made.

I'm at the opposite kind of pole from Schwarzenegger's politics, but thought he did a good job here-

https://twitter.com/Schwarzenegger?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

 

 

[JosephM]

On 1/10/2021 at 9:52 PM, PaulS said:

It’s hard to imagine that the US was putting its best foot forward when it’s leader was deliberately ‘playing down’ the severity of the virus to the people, in conjunction with politicizing the wearing of masks and social distancing.  Could he have done better?  Absolutely.

Hindsight is always better. If the other party was in control, who can say what would have  been done. They most often take opposite points of view even if they might agree. 

One thing that is wise to remember....  Whoever controls the media, controls the narrative and whoever controls the narrative controls the minds of the masses.

With the latest impeachment, there will be only be  further division. Parties need to stop acting like children and if unity is wanted a party needs to move on , not further agitate those who believe differently. Trump would be gone in another week anyway and now his supporters have something else to be angry about.  It seems to me, the divisiveness is not over.

[PaulS]

17 hours ago, JosephM said:

Hindsight is always better. If the other party was in control, who can say what would have  been done. They most often take opposite points of view even if they might agree. 

I agree that hindsight is always better, but there were a lot of people calling on Donald Trump to do more in the mask wearing/social distancing space since long ago - and he pretty much ignored or disparaged them (Trump even openly mocked Biden for wearing a mask). Trump certainly didn't start encouraging your population to wear masks or practice social distancing very well at all - part of his 'playing it down' strategy I guess.

And quite simply, the other party wasn't in control, so I'm not sure why that is an issue. We're talking here about the effectiveness of the person who WAS in control - Trump, and to me, he didn't do a very good job of it at all when it came to managing the virus in the community (e.g. encouraging mask wearing and social distancing).  I think that is why your country is one of the leaders in deaths per capita.  It simply didn't have to be that way.

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One thing that is wise to remember....  Whoever controls the media, controls the narrative and whoever controls the narrative controls the minds of the masses.

IMO, there is no 'the' media when it comes to ownership or control. There is media. All of the individual entities in that space are controlled by individual entities. In many cases the individual entities control several (even dozens) of media outlets, but no single entity or individual can possibly 'own' the media, or 'the' narrative. Yes, individual media bodies may favour a bias (e.g. Fox favour Trump/Republicans whereas CNN favour Biden/Democrats) but clearly neither entity controls 'the' media or 'the' narrative.

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With the latest impeachment, there will be only be  further division. Parties need to stop acting like children and if unity is wanted a party needs to move on , not further agitate those who believe differently. Trump would be gone in another week anyway and now his supporters have something else to be angry about.  It seems to me, the divisiveness is not over.

There may be further division but that is not always a reason to not proceed.  Additionally, as was seen in the House where 10 Republicans crossed the floor to support Impeachment, I think Trump's behavior pre & post the invasion of the Capitol, might see him lose a substantial amount of support from those who otherwise voted for him.  Not everybody who voted Trump is as passionate as those who invaded the Capitol.  Of course, those of the invaders' logic will unlikely ever find a reason not to support Trump, but I think you might see less division over this matter than the last time Trump was impeached. 

In any event, I think the matter should be dealt with on its merits and as far I can see it is not being pursued strictly along party lines with 10 republicans in the House crossing the floor to vote for impeachment and a number of Republicans in the Senate also publicly announcing they would support the motion (and some said they were sitting on the fence until they saw the motion).  You might not agree with it but if Democrats do believe a crime or a transgression was committed by Trump, they have a right, perhaps even a duty, to address it.  Some might not like that, but it is a legitimate part of the democratic process in the US.

[John Hunt]

Three days ago the US Joint Chiefs of Staff felt it necessary to write a letter, unprecedented in its nature, confirming the inauguration of Biden as President -

https://www.npr.org/sections/insurrection-at-the-capitol/2021/01/12/956170188/joint-chiefs-remind-u-s-forces-that-they-defend-the-constitution

They refer to "sedition and insurrection". Some of the rioters had body armor, handcuffs, bombs, they built a gallows.  5 people died. A policeman was battered to death. It was planned - some rioters were wearing T-shirts emblazoned with "Civil War 6th January". The riot was incited by Trump. He has not condemned the rioters ("We love you. You're very special"). He still insists the election was stolen, despite not a scrap of evidence (rather than lies and hearsay) being produced.

The world looks on in horror/despair (apart from autocrat and enemies who are lapping it up). Democracy in the USA has been pushed to the brink. 20,000 of the National Guard are being moved into Washington, to protect the inauguration. There is such a concern about Trump's followers in the police and the Guard that a former director of the FBI has said that counter-snipers are going to be in place, to watch the snipers protecting Biden. 

What charges are likely to be bought against the rioters and those who incited them? Evidence is still emerging about the extent of the planning that went into it, and who was responsible - this is a decent summary of possible charges-

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/01/08/how-to-investigate-charge-capitol-rioters-sedition-prosecutors-roundup-456127

I don't see how it's possible to just sweep this under the carpet, as if nothing serious went wrong here. That would be the childlike thing to do. It just encourages it to happen again. It would effectively be saying "democracy doesn't matter. The constitution doesn't matter. It's all up for a power grab, by those who have the nerve to do it." 

Of course the divisiveness isn't over. But to paper over this, to give in to constant lies and bullying - to suggest that words and actions like these don't have consequences - I think that's the route to authoritarianism and a failed state.