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15 minutes ago, PaulS said:

Your society is not getting destroyed.  Suck it up for a few months and you will largely be okay.

You don't know what is going on here Paul. You live in Australia. Small business has been sucking it up for many months now and perhaps 1/3 to half of them have been destroyed already. So tell your own countrymen to suck it up and stay out of our business..🙂😛

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Romney a man for all seasons, the trumpster a man for ..............well, himself.

It varies by state.

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24 minutes ago, PaulS said:

It's not my science Joe - there simply is NO scientific evidence that herd immunity works as a suitable strategy to tackle covid 19.  

Likewise there is no scientific evidence to say it doesn't on this virus. It has worked in the past but  i never said we should wait for it. I think this thing will end with a Vaccine with smarter people than you and i working on it around the clock.

Have faith grasshopper! 🙂🙂🙂

 

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5 minutes ago, JosephM said:

Asking is one thing. Requiring is another. One can protect oneself from one who refuses to comply. A restaurant can refuse to comply but if i disagree i will not go there. 

Driving is a privilege here in the US, not a right. Certain rules are necessary for the safety of others. 

Because it is a human rights issue and it need not be mandatory for the safety of all. If people want to take the risk be in their presence that is fine with me. Survival will rid itself of the foolish if that is what they are. so long as i am not forced into personal harm.

I agree driving is a privilege, but if you want the privilege of driving within the community there are rules you will adhere to that are in place to protect that community from you being an idiot.  if you don't want to adhere to those rules because you feel your rights should be paramount, you will quickly lose that privilege.

Similarly, you have the privilege to live in a healthy and relatively safe society.  If you want to jeopardize that community and put them at risk because you feel your rights are more important, then that community should feel free to revoke your privilege in order to protect themselves.

I don't see it as people wanting to take the risk be in their presence, but rather people wanting to be able to move freely about society with less risk of covid and they don't want privileged fools, who think their rights should triumph over public safety, making their community less safe for the rest of them.

You seem good with people's rights to protest being shutdown by police because some of the crowd misbehave, but you seem to support the rights of others to endanger their community because they feel their personal rights are more important than respecting the desire for a safer community.  It's odd to me.

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10 minutes ago, JosephM said:

You don't know what is going on here Paul. You live in Australia. Small business has been sucking it up for many months now and perhaps 1/3 to half of them have been destroyed already. So tell your own countrymen to suck it up and stay out of our business..🙂😛

Undoubtedly there is much harm being caused economically by this virus.  My comment did not mean to sound flippant but was in the context of Burl's comment that your whole country was being destroyed.  I'm sure for those small business people it will feel like their world is being destroyed, but the fact remains that your country itself will get through this and is not being destroyed.

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7 minutes ago, JosephM said:

Likewise there is no scientific evidence to say it doesn't on this virus.

There is.  The Kings Study from London.  Read it.

7 minutes ago, JosephM said:

 I think this thing will end with a Vaccine with smarter people than you and i working on it around the clock.

Have faith grasshopper! 🙂🙂🙂

 

I have faith that eventually a vaccine will likely be found.  But the quickest time-frame ever that the world has seen a vaccine developed for a disease, is the one for mumps - and that took 4 years.  So whilst I have hope that technological advancements will speed up the process today, I think it is prudent to treat the virus as though no vaccine will be found.  At least until we can get a handle on it and manage it better. 

0.05% of your population dead in a matter of months, is not my idea of excellent management if you ask me.

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2 minutes ago, PaulS said:

Undoubtedly there is much harm being caused economically by this virus.  My comment did not mean to sound flippant but was in the context of Burl's comment that your whole country was being destroyed.  I'm sure for those small business people it will feel like their world is being destroyed, but the fact remains that your country itself will get through this and is not being destroyed.

If it continued as many Democrats have insisted with the 2nd 3 trillion budget that they passed in Congress it would likely be devastating to the economy and cause more harm than the virus. Americans need to get back to work.There are too many livelihoods at stake Every day we stay shut down has a cost for the working class from which a return to prosperity  will be prolonged with its congoing consequences

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2 minutes ago, PaulS said:

There is.  The Kings Study from London.  Read it.

I read it. They don't as yet really understand the virus. There is a whole lot more to understand about such things as T cells that aid in immunity. There report uses the words Suggests.

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Just now, JosephM said:

I read it. They don't as yet really understand the virus. There is a whole lot more to understand about such things as T cells that aid in immunity. There report uses the words Suggests.

The word 'suggest' in a yet-to-be-peer-reviewed-study is like using the word theory when discussing evolution.  They are saying the evidence is showing you that very few people (less than 17% of the cohort) have antibodies at the 3-month mark.  That is beyond dispute in the study.  'Why' or 'how' that occurs is the only 'suggestion' - the science that they drop off is proven in the study.

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5 minutes ago, PaulS said:

I have faith that eventually a vaccine will likely be found.  But the quickest time-frame ever that the world has seen a vaccine developed for a disease, is the one for mumps - and that took 4 years.  So whilst I have hope that technological advancements will speed up the process today, I think it is prudent to treat the virus as though no vaccine will be found.  At least until we can get a handle on it and manage it better. 

Russia claims to already have one.

The past speed is no proof of the future.

Science has come along way and I would bet you we have more than one vaccine here in the US before the end of the year oh ye of little faith. 🙂😃

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Just now, PaulS said:

The word 'suggest' in a yet-to-be-peer-reviewed-study is like using the word theory when discussing evolution.  They are saying the evidence is showing you that very few people (less than 17% of the cohort) have antibodies at the 3-month mark.  That is beyond dispute in the study.  'Why' or 'how' that occurs is the only 'suggestion' - the science that they drop off is proven in the study.

Where is the real data such as people who have had it getting it again?

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5 minutes ago, JosephM said:

If it continued as many Democrats have insisted with the 2nd 3 trillion budget that they passed in Congress it would likely be devastating to the economy and cause more harm than the virus. Americans need to get back to work.There are too many livelihoods at stake Every day we stay shut down has a cost for the working class from which a return to prosperity  will be prolonged with its congoing consequences

It will be devastating, as it will be for the Australian economy.  Will your country be destroyed - no.

What will be more devastating is if you have Trump continuing his mixed messages about opening or not-opening and the continuation of this pandemic that will never see you able to get back to normal because people are continually sick, contagious, and overwhelm your public health system.

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2 minutes ago, JosephM said:

Science has come along way and I would bet you we have more than one vaccine here in the US before the end of the year oh ye of little faith. 🙂😃

That's one bet that I wouldn't want to be staking lives and an economy on.

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2 minutes ago, JosephM said:

Where is the real data such as people who have had it getting it again?

Well I would have thought you would be able to show me seeing as you are convinced (presumably based on evidence) that herd immunity works for covid19.

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Just now, PaulS said:

That's one bet that I wouldn't want to be staking lives and an economy on.

Well that's fine with me because that's not your decision to make. 🙂

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1 minute ago, PaulS said:

Well I would have thought you would be able to show me seeing as you are convinced (presumably based on evidence) that herd immunity works for covid19.

Never said i was convinced . Said you don't know it doesn't.

 

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My original post only suggested that a degree of herd immunity might account for the negligible 2nd spike in NY based on the large number of deaths that point to an infection rate many times  higher than all but 3 other states.

 

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2 minutes ago, JosephM said:

Never said i was convinced . Said you don't know it doesn't.

On one hand we have the longest running scientific study into covid19, saying that after 3 months less than 17% of an infected cohort still retained antibodies.

On the other hand we have zero scientific evidence of herd immunity actual working to minimize the spread of covid19.

I know where I'm putting my money.

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Well. the proof is in the pudding. Show me the people who were reinfected that had the antibodies even if they were degraded. At best it is a scientific guess that they are not immune.

Then i guess we will just have to wait and see. Save your money , you may need it. 🙂

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1 minute ago, JosephM said:

My original post only suggested that a degree of herd immunity might account for the negligible 2nd spike in NY based on the large number of deaths that point to an infection rate many times  higher than all but 3 other states.

 

If you're saying that it is just a 'might' then I can't disagree with you.  For some, the couple of months worth of antibody resistance may have had some affect on infection spread.

I think on the balance of probabilities though, as evidenced in Australia, social distancing/hygiene controls/lack of group meetings & audiences has definitely seen the spread stop in its tracks.  Perhaps that approach may not work in the US because of people's focus on individual rights.  Largely Australians didn't have that concern when it came to stopping the virus.

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Well, we have had protests with people shouting at close distances and young people having parties etc. etc . You got so much lightly inhabited  land in Australia that you don't have the social distancing problem we do.

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1 minute ago, JosephM said:

Well. the proof is in the pudding. Show me the people who were reinfected that had the antibodies even if they were degraded. At best it is a scientific guess that they are not immune.

Then i guess we will just have to wait and see. Save your money , you may need it. 🙂

Pretty much the science has already established that if you don't have antibodies to a said virus then you can be infected/reinfected with the said virus.  That's normally how it works.  I don't think it is guesswork that has established such scientific principles on immunity.

I'm not sure anybody is going to start a study where we deliberately reinfect people with covid19 to prove that their lack of covid19 antibodies will still protect them?

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1 minute ago, JosephM said:

Well, we have had protests with people shouting at close distances and young people having parties etc. etc . You got so much lightly inhabited  land in Australia that you don't have the social distancing problem we do.

To the contrary, Australia has had social distancing issues which have resulted in resurgences.  The most recent was in Victoria where poor quarantine procedures (i.e. the supervisory personnel let the quarantines out of quarantine for extended periods into the community).  Australia too had people shouting at close distances and young people partying etc.  What was evidenced though was that when that stuff was shut down, the spread stopped.

If you are now saying that the issue is that it is too hard for Americans to practice these measures to stop the spread, well, we're going down a different discussion path now.

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Come on Paul. Your numbers say otherwise. Australia is a unique country. Sure you had some problems but except for a few large cities you are really spread out. Look at your population and land size compared to ours. Hail to the queen. 

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2 minutes ago, JosephM said:

There are 9 countries with more deaths per population than the US. All things considered, we are not doing so bad.

 

I'm glad you're happy with your situation.

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