JosephM

This brings out the agnostic in me. If it is beyond our concept of dualistic thought, how can we say god is, is not or perhaps something else with respect to being subject to anything, nevermind cause and effect? In my view, just as the ear, itself cannot hear and the eye, itself cannot see, the mind cannot "know" what is beyond itself. However, that is not to say that the mind cannot subjectively experience that which is beyond itself. All that we experience is manifested from that which we cannot see. Therefore God cannot be known by the thinking mind but rather subjectively experienced as reality. It seems to me that Life itself/God/ reality is to be experienced rather than conceptualized. There is little we can say of God without speaking in error. Joseph

While it can be said that God and Creation is One, it, to me, can not be said that God is subject to anything, natural or otherwise. God being beyond such a concept of mans duality in thinking. (in my personal subjective experience of course) Joseph

In simple terms ... Yes man is part of nature and no there is nothing man can do that is unnatural. Joseph

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nADt0xTeDWA&feature=related

Dutch Outstanding. I certainly share in your joy.

Paul, As Yvonne, it sounds to me like you have a healthy philosophy and i might add are open at this point in your journey. My advice would be to continue to experience life in the light you have indicated in your post and remain open and just allow life to have its perfect work in you. No need to force the beliefs of others upon oneself. In my experience, Truth is self revealing and comes when the time is ripe. Being open but cautious seems to me to be a good place. Cheers, Joseph

Raven said.... i think IF you want to remain in her presence, it might be best to show compassion and love her in her ignorance. This is done by allowing your awareness to 'feel' any hurt and see it for what it is. (your ego response choice and her ignorance). You can only do something about yourself. IF you would rather not be around her when she is like that tell her politely why and depart. Live in wisdom and let others be them-self. In my experience, we cannot fix the problems of others, only ourselves. And sometimes in so doing, the other changes.. Your ears need not be garbage cans for others. Just my thoughts for consideration on the question, Joseph

To answer your real question.... What is my take on Christian don'ts? I agree with Dutch... no black and white lists. It is enough to walk in the light one has been given and do ones best not to judge or measure others or oneself. In my view, Love has no need of don't lists. . It acts from the view of the limitless whole and cannot be limited to a black and whites set of don't's Joseph

Raven, Friends that continually say things to make themselves appear better than oneself in my view are not friends at all. Some people seem to me to chose to live under their own self made laws whether taken from the Bible or taught or made up. It is my experience that there is no Life in living by those laws. He/she that lives by the law shall surely die by the law. It is, in my experience, self judgement and only serves to end up bringing the one judging into self condemnation because it is impossible to live by the letter of any law made by mankind because of the nature of the flesh. The way i see it,..... To the one who esteems something to be sin, to that one it is sin. Joseph

Brent, You, in my opinion make a valid point/possibility. Yet frankly i am not impressed whether it is a hundred billion or 7 trillion. Those to me are irrelevant points and to consider that statement as a revelation to me is pointless. I have no use for that type information/detail in this life nor other information and claims i heard in that video. I find more relevancy in reading the opinions and views and insights of others here on more practical issues. Sorry, but like Derek and perhaps Myron, its just not what i am looking for but maybe others are interested in such claims.. Joseph

Hi Phil and welcome since i haven't yet responded to your welcome thread. I would answer your question with a definite YES. While there is no doubt that our industrial growth and other factors concerning advancements in science and areas during the 20-21 th century have increased the capabilities to destroy ourselves, in my view, there has also been a notable increase in the level of consciousness among more and more individuals. I am not saying that we won't destroy ourselves. Frankly, i don't know nor am i aware of anyone else who does. Yet the direction and spiritual progress of the masses has in my experience improved in the area of empathy. If you listen and believe the news and television which is focused on the negative i think it would be hard to disagree with you. Yet if you look closely at our parents and parents parents and then our children and grandchildren i think you will see that we are clearly making progress in the empathy area. In my early days women, especially among my ethnic class were severely abused and others including law enforcement mostly looked the other way. it was the same for child abuse, homosexual abuse, black abuse and a host of other social issues. While it has not all gone away, i think we have made progress and empathy has increased in those areas in my personal experience. in my lifetime and childhood we had no empathy for blacks and wouldn't even allow them to use the same bathroom or drink from the same water fountain. And supposedly we were more Christian then, if one listens to the sermons of many present day fundamental preachers. I think not. Just one point of view to consider, Joseph

In my experience, it is there all along and has been but perhaps was not in conscious awareness because of judgments of self and others. Good point Brian, perhaps what some look at as 'free choice or will' is not free choice at all but an evolution of consciousness and conditioning. Therefore i have said in effect that though each action precedes an effect, you can do no other than that which conditioning allows until and unless the One (God) who is beyond conditioning surfaces. And in my experience, no man can come to the One unless the Spirit draws him. What then are we responsible for except to live and experience the myriad of options and consequences put before us until we come of knowledge and are complete in God.? Just some thoughts to consider., Joseph

Brain, You said in one of your posts "I think is safe to say that the nature of Unconditional Love is that it must, of necessity, give itself away freely without condition." Now, If God is unconditional Love and Unconditional Love is given away freely without condition, then how can it be a condition that we must accept or reject that love. It seems to me that it is present with acceptance or rejection. And in the fulness of times, who can ultimately resist God?. In my view, no one 'fully informed' could reject that love unless he/she had no 'free choice' but was rather a product of an evolutionary conditioning stage created by no less than that Love. And then they would not be as of yet in my view, 'fully informed'. Now to the eyes it may be certain that some die in rejection. Yet as to time, who can say with certainty even that this one life here to accept or reject that love and be 'fully informed' is all there is? Certainly not i. I would also suspect not the words of a book that was controlled by the very religious system you testify gave you the beliefs that were stripped away in a single weekend? These are just some thoughts for consideration because like you, i can only speak of my own subjective experience. To me, Sin and a man at the door knocking is a characterization created by religion and not God. To me, it is not possible to be separate from God by a door or even such a thing as sin unless one defines sin as ignorance which resides in every thinking mind and is but a veil to reality. Perhaps In Love is unconditional forgiveness for all and where that forgiveness resides in mankind, sin, guilt, the law and the like cannot cloud that reality in which death is not possible. Just my own musings to share, Joseph

Topic split off to Debate and Dialog by moderator JosephM This thread is limited to personal perspectives of "What is Progressive Christianity to You" as defined by the opening post.

Fatherman, Good to hear from you again. missed your perspectives. I think that God becomes human (so to speak) in each of us and not just Jesus. I also think we have always been reconciled with God but weren't aware of it so we invented blood sacrifices to do so, and when they became no longer a sufficient answer, we made up the cross story which is one way to attempt to permanently once and for all purge our conscience of the guilt that separated us in mind. And it does work to those who believe. However, it is my view that we were never in reality really separated. In my view, it is not possible. I believe there have been those who well before Jesus figured that out and were reconciled without any blood or human sacrifice or religion. Just my thoughts for consideration on the matter, Joseph

Well said Eric. Joseph

Paul, I think the point here is that IF one is cured of some disease or affliction and it is verified in some way, saying well that can't be true because there is no record of faith healers causing new arms to grow, in my view, in no way invalidates that there is no valid faith healing. The question of whether 'faith healers' have even prayed for arm amputees growing new arms after prayer, i am not aware of. Why God would give faith to an individual for one thing and not another IS a valid question for which i personally have no answer. But to me the argument does not invalidate 'faith healing'. Of course if one thinks it does, to me that is fine as i have no quarrel with those who choose to believe differently. I would just disagree. Just my own thoughts, Joseph

Neon, I Split off your complaint from this thread and responses from your cautioned post to the complaint section. Please continue any complaint you have with your caution there.as this thread topic is only for opinions on Faith Healing JosephM (as Moderator)

Neon, Public caution... All here are free to make up their own mind and express their opinion on whether they believe or not and why and even challenge the statements of others but there is no need to attack with such statenemts such as "God must have something against amputees or more likely the faith healers are full of it. " It adds nothing to ones position or view and is not appropriate to be used in debate here.. It is enough to say something like 'that in my research no one has healed an amputee, therefore my conclusion is faith healing is not real or God must have something against amputees'. JosephM (as Moderator)

Guapo, It seems obvious to me from your posts here that you are not in agreement with the 8 points of Progressive Christianity or progressive in your views. Read our guidelines here under this forum. You are most welcome to respond and debate in the Debate and Dialog forum but not post in this thread or threads under the Progressive Christianity forum which is reserved for those who do. One of our moderators has asked you to please introduce yourself in the introduction area so we can better get to know you and where you are coming from and are looking for from this community. It is customary for a guest member here to do so. Please comply and then start a thread in the Debate area on any subject you would like to discuss, ( This area is not for debate between those who identify with PC's and those who do not) Thanks for your cooperation. JosephM (as Admin)

Thanks for all your effort Derek. Been following and reading some but have no further comments. Joseph