JosephM

Thanks for the response Yvonne. For me it was forgiveness for others, which was later facilitated by an understanding that within me (the flesh) was the potential for all the things which i once found in need of forgiveness in others..

What one thing do you feel has helped you the most to progress in your journey? OR What have you learned that you feel has been most important to propel you forward in your journey? Joseph

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Yvonne, Yes. I understand. I had thought it would have been great if only i had been introduced to progressive Christianity before I was in my 50's. It would have saved a lot of grief and unnecessary turns. But you know, the reality is, it wasn't and what i went through was needed for me to come to this very moment. As you, i can't change the past. And you know, not everyone is ready to hear the progressive message. and if they are, they will find forums, people like Spong, Borg, Armstrong and a host of others when they are. Life to me seems to have a way of presenting things in our life when we are ready. I am personally pleased that PC is not shoved on people like fundamental Christianity is nor that PC itself is not an established religion. Because i believe as you said... " it isn't so much what we profess to believe, but in the way we conduct our lives that counts." . The message is out there and all around us even without words or labels. Its common sense not a doctrine or dogma. I believe in synchronicity. When the pupil is truly ready, the teacher appears. We may not recognize it at the time but nevertheless, life is always our teacher. Joseph

Yvonne, Thanks for sharing... When i think about what you say, "wanting to do more to influence others", i find the people who influenced me most in life were people like my wife of 44 years who never speaks of religion or even God but exemplified patience and thoughtfulness for others in the little things. People like my first real employer who said one sentence at the right time that changed my outlook and life because i believed him. A man born with no legs or arms who rose above his disability who stopped in my store one day while waiting for his car to be fixed. An old man who was part of an organization i worked with who always sent out small notes and cards to members expressing his appreciation for their participation. The words of a song. My grandfather who failed in business many times but kept trying until he finally succeeded. A high school teacher my last year who took a personal interest in my career. A father without even a high school education who realized his dreams and self educated himself. A friend who told me that everything i needed to know was right there in my grasp and stood with me when i was no longer invited to minister in traditional Christian churches. When i reflect, the people that influenced me the most probably never thought they were influential to anyone. They were just living out that which was put inside them. Some i never knew but just seeing them with a genuine smile and joy for life moved me to find such a thing. Some i saw were peaceful with problems all around them and it moved me deeper to seek what was this great thing that could make one glad even in sorrow or pain. And then there were the words..... "You'll never know that its true til it happens to you." That's what i wanted. Not theology or to become a preacher or writer, not that there is anything wrong with that as they were in my path also but to find and live within that happening in which is peace and love and all the influence needed to fulfill my individual role in the whole. To be there for that other whether with a smile, a word, one sentence, one action or part or whatever to do our part in the whole of things. Whatever it is... to make that small difference for oneself and the other for which we are here. Joseph

Hi Karen, I can't say what Jesus would have thought about my statement but what i have found by my experience is that if we are to move toward love , so to speak, we must pass through and conquer the lower and more negative emotions. They are painful as a catalyst for suffering which on the positive side serves as an impetus for us to move past. IE Anger is in my view considered a negative emotion but i find it a necessary stage to progress beyond it. It moves us to pride which while negative pushes us towards courage then willingness and then acceptance through to reason and past that into love, joy and peace. So yes while shame is in my view a negative emotion of the ego along with guilt and fear, it serves as an impetus for one to rise above if ones goal is to a consciousness that is founded in love and peace. I admit , i have perhaps a different way or perspective of looking at this than most and personally i don't wish to second guess Jesus's position on what i posed. If anything, i have not expressed any personal displeasure with anyone including the person who posted the picture and any comments which is "accepting them just as they were" Perhaps jesus would not disagree with that. However, i see no reason to jump on the bandwagon and express any displeasure (which doesn't exist in me) to measure the people or persons being discussed as the subject of this thread that are not present nor would probably be interested in what i have to say. I would prefer, if i have anything to say to express a positive side to shame as a stepping stone to that which is more positive. That patriotism is often used in a negative fashion and extreme patriotism is a form of separation, i have agreed with in my first post here. (#2) Joseph

Yvonne, It certainly could be perceived to come across that way and i don't blame you for feeling that way but i assure you it was only meant to get you asking yourself questions in hopes you might come to a more peaceful conclusion of the situation. I apologize if you find my questions too aggressive. They were certainly not meant to attack you but perhaps cause some reflections.. In fact being ashamed is not a bad thing.... If it's others making us feel guilty that causes us to hold back from the full expression of the loving, joyous, peaceful presence that is our source and very being, the angst we feel as a result of holding back is nothing more than shame trying to happen. We talk about others shaming us, but in my view, this isn't at all the case. Others make us feel guilty. Shame arises within ourselves, not from the external world. It can be extremely healthy as an impetus for our development of higher consciousness. It witnesses to the fact that we are capable of so much more in terms of love which is characteristic of our essence. Shame witnesses that we've been limiting ourselves and don't want to continue to live this negated existence but want to know ourselves in our fully conscious state. In my experience, we only go through transformation to the extent we feel dissatisfied with where we are right now and awaken to our greater potential. Shame is sourced in our radical desire to grow yet shame is not our natural state. Shame, i believe is the egoic state fighting to survive because it knows it has a short time to live. Perhaps you are at the point of a breakthrough. Also, just saying.... In love, joseph PS If after some thought you are convinced i am attacking rather than perhaps trying to offer pointers, just say so and i will be most content to remove myself from any replies to your future posts which in the past i have always felt are very thought provoking .

Question for Yvonne, Definition of Ashamed ......Embarrassed or feeling guilt because of something one has done or a characteristic one has. Just curious here. Why are you ashamed at the action or characteristics of others? Is there anything you can do concerning the characteristic of another that has made you feel ashamed? If not, what is it in us or our thoughts that makes us feel that way? Joseph

Yvonne, In my view, strong patriotism can certainly separate people and nations. It is often used by political entities to move the masses in favor of that which common sense and reason would dictate otherwise. It has been used very effectively by leaders to promote personal agendas. I see it also but i am neither offended nor ashamed by such antics which devices seem to me to be inherent as a human attribute until one rises above such in the evolution of consciousness and no longer finds such devices edifying towards one's purpose. Joseph PS Eckhart Tolle has said ......"The Ego has rigid ideals because it has no contact with the infinity of Presence. To insure the reality of these ideals the Ego will defend them to the death. What kind of Ideals lead to war? Patriotism, nationalism, racial and ethnic hatred are good starting points."

Myron, Searle may well be talking above of consciousness here but not awareness. Awareness is behind consciousness and not dependent on it. If I am conscious it is in relation to being unconscious. If I am conscious it is always conscious 'of something' . Consciousness always has an object of which i am conscious. So while the self realization of my identity as the "I am" is very much closer to reality than the idea that i am this or that, it is still a step away from the final realization of the absolute. By that i mean the realization that I am the non- dual awareness which is allowing the consciousness to be conscious. Awareness is that which one could say is shining through the consciousness, yet i do not believe it would be correct to say it is consciousness itself. But of course. if you would differ in this, i have no argument and do yield to you. Perhaps i could be wrong. Joseph

Myron, Interesting..... That may be one way that at least psychology looks at awareness. Awareness to me is recognized more as a potential or state or ability to perceive existence, to feel, or to be conscious of events. Awareness in this sense is the source which brings attention to one's conditioning, which includes thoughts, emotions, memories, ideas, ideals, belief-systems, actions and reactions. However, conditioning or understanding or memory for that matter to me do not seem to be required for awareness which i believe is always present. Joseph

Norm, Awareness and memory recall are not the same thing. Awareness is a state, not a recalled thought. I am aware in my dreams as i am aware while i am awake. However the two states are mostly separated from each other for most but not all people. A lack of recall from one to the other is not indicative of the non existence of the soul. Most consider the dream state a step back from reality, however , perhaps one will find in time that the dream state is actually a step closer to ultimate reality and a soul with many seemingly separate lives that are in reality one. That is to me in is a sense profound. The question one must ask is "who am i" (me). As long as the "i" (me) is limited to this story or role that is identified as "me" then the separation exists between the two seemingly 'states' yet in my experience, awareness has never left. Joseph

Welcome to the forum Terry. I would imagine Mexico City to be primarily Catholic and i am not aware of any progressive christian churches within our global network listed on our main site for that location. Perhaps you could start a small group yourself meeting in homes on a regular basis and see where that leads. You would think that the city is big enough to have at least one UU or Progressive Christian church. Perhaps it does but i have been unsuccessful locating one from a cursory examination on the internet. Anyway, most here are interested in the same things you mention in your introduction post. Feel free to join the conversations or start a thread of interest to yourself. There is quite a database here of past threads that can be searched if you are interested in a particular discussion past discussion. Again welcome, Joseph.

I agree Soma we need better controls and i would add enforcement of present laws to reduce crime with guns.. Education of our young ones and how they are brought up is also most important. Since the large majority here support an assault weapon ban here is some Libertarian logic to try and understand the other side of those who are against the assault ban If one seeks understanding of why our educated representatives voted not to continue the ban here is a good Wiki article. One can blame it on the NRA if one likes but i personally would not and challenge people to read both sides of the issue. Drugs like heroine and cocaine and others are banned in this country and against the law and they are still readily available in all US cities on a black marhet. The price may go up with laws and a ban but those who are criminals and those who are mentally deranged will not be stopped by a law or ban and we have existing bans and data to prove that. The problems of killing and crime are imo always deeper than the surface issues. Public support for bans, imo, i personally find usually rest on oversimplified arguments and mostly erroneous data. Then again we all have opinions and the above links are just food for thought and understanding. Have a great day, Joseph

Odds of death by type Chart from insurance site. Also a surprising fact found on Wiki and elsewhere is that over 50% (55% from 2005) of gun related deaths are suicide.

Senator Dianne Feinstein of California and possibly most Others and institutions listed on this site..

Neon, Yes, sensationalism does seem to exist on both sides of the road. I believe extremism is a minority but it always seems to sell papers or generate interest with a lot of hype,. Paranoia does seem to work on some. It appears to me that one does need to look deeper than just the surface news to get a more objective perception. Joseph

Hi Yvonne, i moved this thread here since it is more appropriate in this location as a link of possible interest to our members. Please be so kind to reciprocate and link us from your site. Thanks , JosephM (as Moderator)

This to me much follows the deep teachings of Jesus concerning forgiveness, mercy, love, and judgement. Lived experience is to me its fulfillment. This is the kingdom of God/Heaven here in this world. Joseph

Neon, You ask the question. "why are Americans so obsessed with owning guns . The question is flawed in my view in that Americans as a whole are not obsessed with owning guns. Many especially here on this forum are not and of all the people i know. only one MAY BE obsessed with owning guns. What makes one obsessed? It is defined in the dictionary as "To have the mind excessively preoccupied with a single emotion or topic". I don't think Americans in general are by that definition obsessed with owning guns. I think you are speaking of a sensationalized very small minority of the population. According to recent surveys, only approximately 40% of Americans even own guns and feel it is their right, i don't think that makes it an obsession. Even NRA membership is less than 2% of the population. Joseph

Perhaps the soul did "take over" during that time and there was awareness and you merely have no recollection of it. Most people don't even remember 10% of their dreams so i would think that such an incident as you have expressed is inconclusive. Joseph

Norm, Where do you get your data? Even a revolver with a bit of practice can be shot in less than one bullet a second into a crowd. and reloaded with a speed loader in less than 5. Secondly even with the assault ban modern semi-auto pistols were still able to carry up to 10 rounds and fire as fast as you can pull the trigger. They can be reloaded in less than 2 seconds. Shotguns which are perfectly legal and i believe the shooter also carried a 12 gauge shotgun which when with double or triple O buckshot could have wounded or killed more. The shooter carried 4 guns in the theater and the assault weapon jammed. He then used the others. The shooter was mentally disturbed but not incompetent with firing a gun. Perhaps you are confused about homemade bombs which are certainly not highly regulated.... Just ask any Londoner around in 2005. ... where a person detonated homemade bombs on the London transport system in July 2005, killing 52 people. . It was homemade from easy to get household items, cheap and dangerous and fit in a backpack. I would also question your american history and hunting comments but it would just prolong the conversation. Each here has there own view of the subject and it is apparent that most that have commented other than myself are in contrast except for the point that we all would all like better gun control and better enforcement of laws that involves guns. Joseph

Norm, Perhaps it is you who might be taking things out of context. My response to George was clearly in the context of his statement "Guns in the hands of incompetents are dangerous". I was agreeing and adding that the same can be said of autos in the hands of the incompetent, knives, clubs etc. The second statement i made, to me, is obvious that it had nothing to do with the incompetent . I was merely stating that all things even in nature have the capacity for good or harm which has nothing to do with suggesting the opposite of "A mentally disturbed teenager cannot call forth a tornado to wreak havoc on the bullies in his tenth grade English class." Of course not. I think you do miss miss the context of what i was saying.. Also as you know, the gun has capacity for good. It was designed for killing yes but also good and was instrumental in hunting and providing food for our civilization. It was also used to gain our independence from the British and it is also can be used to protect our family and if need be effectively resist our own government as a last resort. It has the capacity for both good and harm. Now assault weapons as automatic weapons currently have, need stricter control and there are laws that can help (not eliminate) that. The perpatrator in the Colorado case was deranged but not stupid. He knew how to build bombs and if he had no assault weapon he could just have well hurled a few bombs into the crowd and done as much damage. A host of other options to massacre people are also available to deranged people. Latest news shows he was receiving psychiatric treatment. IMO, Laws should be passed when cool heads prevail and it seems to me that this incident has merely brought rhetoric by one of the sides. The NRA officially has not responded until all the details are in. Now is the time in my view for mourning and grieving and not poorly thought out solutions. Both sides need to do what is reasonable and NRA members are not against better control as in the link i submitted above your post. Laws alone will not work as evidenced by our immigration laws and drug laws. Perhaps better enforcement and better judicial practices of existing laws will help some Joseph

http://www.mikebloomberg.com/index.cfm?objectid=BA75D9EE-C29C-7CA2-F1818D65164A53A5

Dutch, i think the self is an illusion only in the sense that it is not what it appears to be on the surface. I may experience the self as real but still is it not an erroneous perception of reality if i confuse my self with the story which is mostly the case? In the moment, the story disappears. I play a role here but am i that role (self) or the one experiencing the role and connected to the whole? To reside in self , separation exists. To reside in ones being, there appears nothing separate. Is there a difference? I think to reside in ones being, it doesn't matter as real and illusion lose any separation. Joseph