JosephM

There are 9 more openings for Site Sponsors who wish to help support the free use of this forum. If interested, contact me by PM.

To All members and guests, I apologize for the repeat of the account suspension problem again on 10-03-2012. I have been doing everything in my power to restore the forum as quick as possible. I have been officially notified by IPB Hosting services billing manager that the problem has been rectified and we are back on line now. i would like to tell you that it will never happen again but sometimes in life there are things beyond our control and they happen. We can only do our best to try and prevent them and take care of them as best as we can and that is all. We are fortunate not to have advertising plastered all over this forum, its use is without charge to members and one must remember it is run strictly by volunteers. Sorry for any inconvenience and thanks for your understanding. Joseph

The problem with Invision billing has been fixed and we should not be having any future problems. JosephM

To All members, On behalf of ProgressiveChristianity.org, Forum / Discussion board I am looking for 11 volunteers, 12 including myself, to help support this forum by sponsoring one months cost (presently $ 20.00) to help cover the actual expenses we are billed by IPB to host this forum. (Limited to 12 members which takes care of all 12 months) Please PM me for where you can send a check if you are interested, able and willing to help support your forum and its mission by being a Site Sponsor for a year by making a one time $20.00 donation. There is no requirement to do so nor is the continuance of this forum dependent upon this but i felt it would be good if members were offerred the opportunity to assist financially. Some perks for a Site Sponsor include * "Site Sponsor" in your avatar to indicate you are a Site Sponsor and helping to financially support this forum's mission by helping to bear the cost of one months Internet hosting fee (presently 20.00/month) * Flood control limitations removed from your searches * Increased post editing time from 30 to 60 minutes * Increased number of posts allowed in a 24 hour period to 100 * The ability to see who gave reputation points *Access to a Private Site Sponsors Sub-Forum (not visible to the public or other members where you can talk more openly concerning the operation of this forum) THANKS FOR YOUR ATTENTION. JosephM, ProgressiveChristianity.org Administrator

For those that received this message on Oct 1, 2012, The message you received was not your individual account being suspended. We have been having some billing problems with IPB due to some communications problems and expiration date problems with a credit card on file. We are at least temporarily back on line and will be hopefully rectifying the problem this week. JosephM

What is the cause of unhappiness? The dictionary defines unhappiness as "not satisfied; displeased or discontented:". To be any of these things covered in the definition, there must be a thought in mind that this moment, what is or as the Buddha says the "suchness" is not as the thinking mind would have it. There is a thought whether conscious or unconscious that something needs to happen in my life that is different than what is. The mind resents that it has not yet happened and somehow believes that resentment will somehow make it happen. Or it could also be the thought that something happened in the past that should not have happened OR something is happening now that should not be happening. Any of these thoughts are enough to cause feelings of unhappiness. They are assumptions, thoughts that are confused with reality. The truth of the matter is that these are negative thoughts and made up stories that the mind creates to convince you that you cannot be happy with what is (reality). Either the egoic thinking mind doesn't know that happiness can only be found in this very moment or it knows it but perhaps doesn't want you to find out because it knows that to find this place of happiness and peace is the end of the 'ego's reign'. In essence the ego is creating hell on earth. It is the essence of unconscious living because it operates on separation from the whole.. In my view, one way to end all this misery that the ego has inflicted upon humanity for thousands of years is to take responsibility for yourself and your inner state at every moment in time. Being aware of any negativity in thoughts is the key to overcoming them. Seeing thoughts for the story they are and for what they are, without self-judgement is just enough to start a dissolving process or sometimes sudden or more often seemingly gradual transformation from within. A transformation so these negative thoughts no longer have any power over your peace and happiness. Being aware of negativity in oneself is not a sign of failure but rather success. Why? Because in my view, you are not your thoughts and becoming more conscious of them shifts identification from the ego to ones essence which is aware of these thoughts. Or one could say to ones natural connected state which is found in peace with reality and who you really are. May we all continue this journey of Self-discovery that is not found in the knowledge of abundance of books, which is knowledge about, but rather in the simple exploration of our own mind and thoughts which tries to create its own world. A world that is doomed to failure until we wake up to our true nature found in happiness, contentment, satisfaction and alignment with the whole. May we all fall in love and be in love with Life itself in whatever role Life takes us.. In this love is the home of happiness. Joseph

Welcome Eusebius, I am no longer in a scholarly pursuit of the Bible but as you i think the Bible has much to tell us and is filled with inspiration although i find many other books do likewise . There is at least one interesting thread here concerning process theology and I think you will find many like-minded individuals here and some interesting threads to ponder and participate in.. Again welcome, Joseph

I think the word "cult" has some negative connotations to most people as a result of some super extreme religious organizations such as Jim Jones group, Heavens gate , the Branch Davidians, etc. . It has a number of different definitions in the dictionary that i believe could be applied to call most any Christian denomination or other religion a cult.. It is a most relative term with as i said negative connotations from historical events and i would personally choose to not use it to label another's religion including Mormons even though there are Mormons who admit they are a cult but by the same definitions they use that most other groups also fit. Joseph

Neon, No, i don't think he should be banned under hate speech laws.. I believe he is free to express his opinions in his films. People are offended by many film makers and they have the right to not watch films which may be offensive to them. No law is broken by portraying God as an evil dictator. Most adult movies have a message that could be offensive to some but i think most people go to the movies to be entertained. Movies are reviewed in advance from which appropriateness for the viewer can usually be discerned in advance. Attendance is not mandatory. Perhaps the issue here is being 'beat to death'.

Hi Padre, Have much in common. Served in Air Force on F4C, D, & E radar and armament systems electronics. Also have my commercial, instrument pilot and instructors license teaching aerobatics for some time. Also ordained and served as non-denominational Christian minister. Among other things, also now retired and find Progressive Christianity to fit rather well. I also find much in common with other religions including Buddhism. Welcome aboard and enjoy the flight. Joseph

I understand your point but it is still contains hypotheticals like 'ought to' and ' if's' and 'we don't need to'. It seems to me, it misses the possible inference of Dutch's suggestion. It seems to me, from the perspective of the whole, this very moment is 'as it is' as a result of ALL things since the beginning of time including such trivia as the number of hairs on your head. Reality by definition is not a hypothetical or mere assumption. Reality is a product of everything intertwined in a 'dance', where each element influences every other element and brings us to this moment in time. 'This moment' by definition could not be other than what it is or it would be different. Dreamers are fine and give us hope, but who can say what wasn't necessary to arrive at this point except what actually happened? Reality of the moment is the result of all happenings, whether real or presumed by the mind. Therefor, i would also say ... "believing in a substitutionary sacrifice was a necessary step in the present evolution of our thinking about Jesus" as Dutch alluded to in his post. In my view, it is an established historical sequence and a correct statement. IMO, while hypotheticals can be used to influence future happenings they have have no real existence in reality. Just my take on the original post and your comments. Joseph

Norm, I would disagree. If it happened, it is not hypothetical as is your assumption that it was not necessary in the process of the evolution of consciousness. I think Dutch's statement was very insightful. Joseph

Good point Paul, True Freedom of Speech doesn't extend to this forum. It doesn't extend to my home also. One cannot say anything they wish and remain a member here nor a guest in my home. . Same with churches and other organizations of which we may be a member that have rules set up for acceptable speech behavior. Even movie theaters here limit free speech by the audience. Joseph

Good point. Evolution does seem to have temporary intermediate resting points. Joseph

Hi Annie, Names and labels seem to me to rarely have the exact same meaning to all people. I think people are to complicated to use a series of consonants and vowels in a word to accurately describe them. It seems to me that "the terms /descriptions ‘emerging’ and ‘evolving’ Christianity" are fine if that is what you are comfortable with. I see no arrogance in any of those two or the word Progressive. HERE IS A THREAD that members have indicated what Progressive Christianity means to them. Perhaps from reading you can get a clearer picture and make your own judgement on whether their response seems arrogant or not . Good to hear from you again. Joseph

In short, it seems to me hell is living with the ego.ruling ones life creating a state of internal suffering and that the personification of the ego is nothing more than satan revealed in us. Both of them being illusory in nature. Heaven on the other hand is an ever present elevated state in alignment with the whole in which internal suffering has ceased in spite of circumstances. Experienced Reality is individualistically highly subjective and lies.somewhere in between. I don't know what Jesus or John really believed or what John really wrote nor what was the intended meaning of what we read as the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Joseph

Hi JZM, I certainly don't share your belief that "I believe being reborn in this imperfect world is the second death spoken of in the book of Revelation" . I would suggest that i am already resurrected from the first death (spiritual) and ltherefore the second death (physical) has no power over me but that disagreement is not really that important to me. I think you have found something that works for you and gives you motivation and peace in life to learn from it and do better. That is part of your journey and is important to you and that seems to me is important. Reality to me seems not to be based on personal beliefs as much as what is in the current moment. To align oneself with the essence of ones life seems to me to be sufficient to experience that kingdom now in spite of physical circumstances rather than hope in a future life. However, whatever seems to work for one is fine with me. I do think there is much truth in your topic title in the sense that we do in a sense experience hell here on earth that drives us to seek heaven. Best of wishes on your path, Joseph

Hi Ginger, You are in no way alone in your thoughts and feelings. Many here have been that way before. It takes time to get past the feeling of being 'in between 2 worlds' I am not much of a reader but i am sure others here can give you some good pointers on what books to read to help and you will find a wealth of helpful views/information on existing threads on this site. I am most aware how painful it can be when taking the step you have taken . It may helpful to read the views of members here on "Just What is Progressive Christianity to you" by clicking .... HERE. Also some of the heartfelt stories and replies under the "Personal Stories and Journey's Forum" might be helpful. Welcome Ginger and make yourself at home. PS If you will give your city and state , i will be happy to look up some progressive churches for you in your area. Joseph

George, What a poorly done movie about Islam. I certainly wouldn't pay to see it nor give it much weight except for sick entertainment. However, i could envision someone taking the Old Testament and doing the same to the Jewish/Christian faith and make a laughing stock out of it also using many Leviticus sayings/laws and practices and some stories elsewhere. Joseph

Paul, FYI.... Exceptions would include.... A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation. A false and malicious statement or report about someone. Threatening a person or group. Some supreme court rulings on free speech ................ Freedom of speech includes the right: Not to speak (specifically, the right not to salute the flag). West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943). Of students to wear black armbands to school to protest a war (“Students do not shed their constitutional rights at the schoolhouse gate.”). Tinker v. Des Moines, 393 U.S. 503 (1969). To use certain offensive words and phrases to convey political messages. Cohen v. California, 403 U.S. 15 (1971). To contribute money (under certain circumstances) to political campaigns. Buckley v. Valeo, 424 U.S. 1 (1976). To advertise commercial products and professional services (with some restrictions). Virginia Board of Pharmacy v. Virginia Consumer Council, 425 U.S. 748 (1976); Bates v. State Bar of Arizona, 433 U.S. 350 (1977). To engage in symbolic speech, e.g., burning the flag in protest. Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989); United States v. Eichman, 496 U.S. 310 (1990). Freedom of speech does not include the right: To incite actions that would harm others (e.g. “hout[ing] ‘fire’ in a crowded theater.”). Schenck v. United States, 249 U.S. 47 (1919). To make or distribute obscene materials. Roth v. United States, 354 U.S. 476 (1957). To burn draft cards as an anti-war protest. United States v. O’Brien, 391 U.S. 367 (1968). To permit students to print articles in a school newspaper over the objections of the school administration. Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier, 484 U.S. 260 (1983). Of students to make an obscene speech at a school-sponsored event. Bethel School District #43 v. Fraser, 478 U.S. 675 (1986). Of students to advocate illegal drug use at a school-sponsored event. Morse v. Frederick, __ U.S. __ (2007). Joseph

It is my view that true altruism is in contrast to self. It doesn't originate form the thinking mind. It doesn't come from loyalty or obligation in the traditional sense but instead rises up when the ego is subjugated even if only temporarily. Altruism to me originates without thought from the very essence of our being where motive , gain and respect for or allegiance to individual, group or community disappear. (no respecter of persons) It seems to me, it is action founded in alignment with the whole. (Oneness or Christ) Joseph

Hearing the same church gospel message over and over at every service. Attending my granddaughters Baptist church recitals and programs and listening to the programming they are being fed and repeating. When people thank God only when they are spared some suferring in a situation while another is not.so lucky as if they are more special.or serving God better.

Obviously, we or at least most of us cannot know if the criticism will be accepted as constructive by the other but as PaulS pointed out and i agree intent and accuracy is most important to begin a contructive criticism. If one can see that it is ineffective but the intent was contructive and we have no power as Dutch said to change things, and it is not accepted, i would disagree with Dutch that it would then be not constructive because It seems to me that it would still have been appropriate because of the contructive intent of the criticizer and it yet may be received later after some thought or reflection by the other. It is still constructive in the sense that it is opposed to destructive. (ref: dictionary) It would only really becomes non-constructive in my view if it becomes a repetitive criticism that is refused since intent is then in question. In summary, i believe we cannot be responsible for the receiver and only for our best delivery and intent and if we do a good job i think the criticism was constructive whether received that way or not. Constructive in the sense that we offered to the other something we would like to receive ourself for improvement that may be accepted after thought at a later date even if not now.. What we offered may or may not be correct except in our own eyes but each of us has a duty to sincerely offer what we feel is contructive to the group / organization / society / government mission we are part of. It seems to me it only becomes non-constructive when the intent is more to blame or find fault or bolster ones own ego rather than improve things OR it is continually repeated after knowing it was neither wanted nor received in good spirit. I think PaulS has pointed out well that reflection is important in recognizing in ourselves patterns that point to unconscious behavior or habit of a criticising nature. Joseph

From Nelsons natural World..... I think this is an interesting topic because it is a most common occurance in our lives. While critical thinking has its benefits and may be constructive when working with Newtonian principles and also as pointed out above, with other people , such thinking often turns to habitual criticisms and are in my opinion and experience more often not constructive or healthy. This includes criticisms not only of people but i might add of other things such as organizations, products, governments, religions, etc. , It seems to me, when we are 'overly critical' of other people or things, it is usually because we are unhappy with ourselves and projecting that onto others. Nelsons Natural World lists some emotional causes as Being frustrated with their own lives Jealousy of others Having unmet goals General unhappiness Anger Self- loathing Feeling taken advantage of by other people Feeling unlucky or cursed in some way Inferiority complex Lack of self-confidence The question i would ask for dialog is .... Just where do you consider the line between constructive and non-constructive criticism (being overly critical)? How do you recognize when it is unconscious and more out of habit rather than out of love ? Your thoughts, Joseph

Yvonne, Thanks for your additional clarifications. It is certainly okay with me that you view it the way you have chosen. And as Myron said, i agree you are not alone among progressives. . I guess i am just not as concerned as it is recorded Jesus was, from the writings we have, that he wouldn't " let the "little guy" get away with much either". I just don't personally see that as my function on this earth now but i realize it may be the function of others. Each of us have to follow what we see as our path and i respect your right to see it differently. Thanks again, Joseph