JosephM

Jenell, It seems to me that sometimes we want something so bad that it creates a blindness to sound reasoning and judgement. I think it happens at times to us all. Strong wants and desires do have their attachments and pitfalls. Sorry to hear about the issue and hoping that real learning takes place as a result of any suffering incurred. Joseph

Said goodbye to my parents a few years ago also and now thinking about it after reading your post. To let go for me , in a sense, is to embrace all. I am reminded of a saying that a motorcycle friend of mine use to say joyfully all the time , no matter what was happening. "It doesn't get any better than this" I have come to understand what is hidden beneath those words and it leads me to also say, i am grateful to my parents. I think they were perfect in their own way even though our eyes and head might say different.

Thank you Bill. And the same wishes for you. Now to try and curb my gluttony for all the fine food today. Joseph

Yvonne, I think you have a healthy attitude toward your friends. I also think you are entitled to keep the terms you are comfortable with in your worship. Perhaps worship is best left more of an individual thing rather than becoming so ecumenical as a group that it loses its meaning to us personally. As far as us losing some of our identity, i think that identity is more in content than context and perhaps might not be a such a negative thing as one might suppose. After all , in a search for meaning, one in my view must eventually or inevitably gravitate toward that which is common in us all. In doing so , it seems to me that there is naturally an identity shift to that which is more permanent and cannot be lost and a fading away of any fear of loss of identity to that which can . Just some related thoughts from your comments, Joseph

Perhaps we are all the same in our own diverse ways of expression?

"The one commandment of Jesus that i have the most trouble with is to love your enemies. I just can't seem to find another i consider my enemy" JosephM

"One can be just about as happy as one will allow oneself to be" " Being bored is a condition, not the knower"

"To be a seeker implies that you need the future. If this is what you believe, it becomes true for you. You will need time until you realize that you don't need time to be who you are." Eckhart Tolle

Thanks Derek, But if we all goggled everything we would have no need for this forum and exchange . Besides i was interested in your personal perspective and experience as relates to the question and not just text. Perhaps you have answered that in your last sentences? Joseph

Derek, How does one know what is "right" view, intention, speech, livelihood, effort , concentration, etc. Are there rules such as the commandments in Christianity? Views ,speech , livelihood , etc. seem like subjective issues. How do individuals know what is right view and what is wrong view? Is there a general golden guiding rule where there is agreement in determining such? Hope you don't mind me putting you on the spot a bit. These questions immediately come to my mind when you list the eight-fold path. Joseph

Just a bit of humor for the day. Saw this signature on a post somewhere and chuckled.... " I dream of a day where chickens can cross the road and not have their motives questioned. "

Thanks for the summary Derek, Perhaps in Christianity we might say. "We are transformed by the renewing of our mind". Also "to repent" is to change our thinking. Perhaps the new creature emerging in the Christian religion is a transforming or re-identification of who we are in Christ which relates to your statement "So "overcoming it" involves not the elimination of certain things,but a transformation of understanding, of "who we are". I say re-identification because it seems to me in Christianity, perhaps we have never really lost (or fallen as some might say) from who we really are (doesn't seem possible), we just became unaware of it and it appears as if we have lost our way. You have not explained the eight fold path mentioned but i assume from your summary that it is a path of compassion which leads to the cessation of suffering as might also the path of love in Christianity? Joseph

Derek, Perhaps you could elaborate on 191 and 192 on what exactly is suffering as defined in Buddhism and how its cessation is arrived at by the eightfold path. That sounds like something pretty important. Even Christianity speaks of such a day in the kingdom but unfortunately many teachings teach that this is for the hereafter only. Personally, i do not share that belief in Christianity. Joseph

Great Quote Bill, Seems so true. Reminds me of the quote "Actions speak louder than words" While the author of those exact words are unknown here are a couple similar quotes that are known... "I have always thought the actions of men the best interpreters of their thoughts." ~John Locke "Well done is better than well said." ~Benjamin Franklin And somewhat related... Proverbs 14;4 "Without oxen a stable stays clean, but you need a strong ox for a large harvest."

"Don't take your thoughts too seriously."

May you be granted strength and peace and your grief be brief. Love in Christ, Joseph

Nice post Karen, I would agree that we experience or are aware of the stream intermittently, at least in my own experience and hopefully with fewer intermissions as we go along. I guess it possibly may be a one time constant thing with some or few but most of them are not speaking. Joseph

The Current September 2011 E-Bulletin In Honor of James R. Adams Founder of The Center for Progressive Christianity June 30, 1934 - September 13, 2011 can be found HERE

The Current July 2011 E- Bulletin for TCPC with articles of interest can be found here

No Condemnation in Christ by JosephM If someone asked me , what was the one most important thing that propelled me on my spiritual journey, i would have to say it was the elimination of guilt and self condemnation from my consciousness. Life up to that point was for me filled with written rules, laws and commandments of the Bible, the church, my parents and those placed over me. Sooner or later it seemed always inevitable in my very nature that i would violate one of these precepts. And with that violation would come conscious or unconscious guilt that weighted me down to the point i could no longer truly love myself nor others. I was condemned by my acceptance of these written laws and giving them power over me to accuse me and fill me with guilt. Laws that i found it near impossible to keep at all times. As a result i felt i was slowly dying and could no longer feel joy in the material things i had attained in the world. They could no longer cover up the feeling of the absence of love for such an imperfect creature as myself Condemnation in a biblical sense means an adverse decision or verdict, a judgment, an accusation or damnation. In that sense the opposite of condemnation would be justification or acquittal. It is important for one to keep in mind that there can be no adverse decision or verdict until one is charged or accused with a violation or transgression of some sort. It then stands to reason that there must also be an accuser. In other words, we see there must be a violation or transgression of some sort with an accuser for there to be condemnation. If we can prove the absence of any one of these factors there can be no condemnation. Freedom from these laws came for me from a decision to forgive all others. This making true for me the teaching of Jesus that said. "For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you". And with this forgiveness i became as a new creature with the burden of guilt and sin lifted and love surfacing in its place. Col. 2:20-22 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, [21] (Touch not; taste not; handle not; [22] Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? I then understood these written laws and commandments and their purpose and was no longer under their control. However in time, i somehow managed to lose some of this new-found freedom i had become a recipient of. I was certain i knew I was no longer under those written laws yet something was wrong. My prayer was that my eyes would be opened to see such a device that would rob me of this new-found joy and freedom in Christ i had felt. My answer was to come... It was not the written laws but rather 'the unwritten killer' that was slaying me. I had missed the subtle unwritten laws. At the time I was working at GE in Cincinnati, Ohio. Our department had frequent meetings and gatherings for individuals. Being a coffee drinker, I always liked to get started with a good cup of coffee to drink before the meeting or bring it to the meeting. Being brought up to be punctual for all affairs, I prided myself in this virtue. I would leave early to get to work early and get in line early at the department coffee machine of which I was a paid member and wait my turn in line. It never ceased to amaze me how inconsiderate some people could be. Rather than wait for the coffee machine to finish brewing, many would advance to the front and remove the pot from under the brewer and place their cup there to get a cup full before it was finished brewing. I remember thinking to myself many times down deep inside that this is a bad thing to do since it takes the strongest portion of the brew and leaves a weaker brew to those patiently waiting. I watched others do this quick trick so as not to wait in line. I thought to myself how wrong and inconsiderate this is to others. I remember even remarking to God how wrong this was to do such a thing. However, I got no response . It wasn't long after that a traffic jam set my arrival at work later than usual. I was about to be late for a meeting and didn't yet have my coffee. I, without thought, but minding my fleshly need for a hot cup of coffee, immediately advanced to the coffee machine that was still brewing. Quickly I whisked my cup in place of the pot without missing so much as a drop. I filled my cup, proudly returned the pot and headed towards my meeting just in time to hear a voice saying in my head, “Who are you that does the same thing?” I knew right away that this question was a response to my previous remark. I was cut to the quick. I had violated a law and it wasn't in a book. It was a law i had written on my heart. I now knew what unwritten laws were all about. And for those who need to read it in a Bible... Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. I was bringing on my own judgment. Instead of excusing other people for their natural desire/nature for the fleshly things and their prior conditioning, i was continually making new laws for myself. I was accusing and measuring others. I was eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil rather than the tree of life. Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: What does that mean? To me, it meant that even when you haven’t put yourself under a written law you could be a law unto yourself. How? By accusing others. The next verse of the book of Romans reads.... Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) As we go about our daily lives we succeed in writing many laws on our hearts as we continually judge and measure others around us. I learned this through the incident above and now choose to excuse rather than accuse. I hope this sharing of this experience will not only entertain somewhat but will somehow help others in their spiritual journey as they see there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ where there is neither negative accusations nor measuring of others. Where love forgives even before an offence is given.

Thanks Derek, I think i will leave the word "suchness" alone and to others such as Pai-Chang and Suzuki to explain or ponder. While some of it sounds like familiar territory, the breadth of it seems too deep intellectually for me. Makes my head hurt. Joseph

Derek, Thanks for the interesting contrast. I certainly am not very knowledgeable on the word "suchness" but my understanding is that suchness has some sublime attributes... " It manifests the highest wisdom which shines throughout the world, it has true knowledge and a mind resting simply in its own being. It is eternal, blissful, its own self-being and the purest simplicity; it is invigorating, immutable, free." Personally i do not see "in Christ" as distinctly different. Perhaps i do not yet have a full understanding of the word "suchness" or how it is different? I of course do not agree with traditional eschatology as taught and understood by the traditional/fundamental church system. Joseph

Derek, I see a parallel in Christianity except i think much of traditional Christianity waits for an afterlife to see such a thing as outlined in this section. I do not see it as unsimilar to much of Jesus's teaching. Perhaps we can substite the word living waters for 'the stream'. Joseph

Hi Yvonne, By chance are you near Newton or Grinnel Iowa? My wife has relatives on her side living there. Most were farmers but most of the farmers have since passed away. The rest are in Missouri.