JosephM

Welcome Eldred, Glad you got everything straightened away and are here to share with us. I changed your title to Spong Subscriber and you are welcome in all area of the forum. Joseph

I think this is a wonderfully challenging book for Christians., I think Tillich in this Chapter makes the point that the Golden Rule must be transcended with Love. This is because no rule , even this one, is able to always reside in wisdom because our wishes in using it include both our 'right' and our 'wrong' which includes that which is foolish at the expense of wisdom. Wisdom to me, comes not from rules or appearances but rather is in harmony with Love which is not of the thinking mind. Joseph

Paul, It seems to me, beating our-self up is what the mind likes to do. It makes it strengthens our sense of self. Loving just as you are unconditionally is what God does, not condemning or judging. for not being able to do what we might think we should be doing. Of course there is always more that 'can' (hypothetical); be done but there is also only so much that you can do at this moment. Why because (my view) you are only able to do what you are enabled mentally/emotionally, physically and spiritually to do at this time. Whether you are filthy rich or not makes no difference. Perhaps in the future you will feel led in some way you can't describe to do something more and you will cheerfully be able to do it and it won't be out of guilt or necessity or feelings of should or shouldn't but rather out of a place of peace and love.. I can't explain it but there are times i really wanted to give to someone in need but something inside (not forceful or coercive) said not to give so i didn't. Neither did i understand it at the time.. On a few of those occasions i later understood and saw that my choice was for the best because there was something for the other to learn.. Wisdom, to me, in what to do, always comes silently from a spirit of peace and not from the confusion of the mind. Just some further thoughts, Joseph

George, Yes, that is a privilege you have been given here in this country to compel others to support the ruling class choices. And that is part of the social order of societies in general. That is its function and perhaps rightly so... Personally, i have no wish to compel anyone to support another and i would leave that choice up to the individual but that is not the case here. So while i might differ in my view, i still willingly comply but not as one compelled. You cannot compel me to do anything beyond my own choices. Society can only present me with those choices. Joseph

Just for the record.. and not to be misunderstood.... For one that believes one should go and sell all and use it to 'better' this world, i am not in opposition. For one that believes one should become less comfortable and make others more comfortable than they are presently doing, i am not in opposition. For one who feels they should leave family and friends and possesions for the sake of the world. i am not in opposition. To those who feel they need to take on a life of austerity and service to mankind, i am not in opposition. Each in peace according to his/her role and makeup, i am not in opposition. Even to those who choose to do nothing, i am not in opposition. For me, i will follow my own path and not put any burden upon the other. To the extent that i contribute to others, which is not out of necessity or grudgingly, i will not judge of myself but give only that which i am able to give from a cheerful and thankful heart. Joseph

Paul, I think you may be possibly twisting the points a bit. You say..... The way that we behave is the fullest expression of what we believe. Your "So" conclusion puts judgement and condemnation on that expression that to me doesn't fit. Each individual acts within the grace that is given him/her and to me wisdom dictates ones actions... guilt and condemnation is an ego concept that may work for the child but not for one that has grown beyond such. . All your conclusions added to the points in your original post of which i just quoted one do one and the same. I know you are looking to try to understand why everybody doesn't do all they can do to eliminate the worlds problems which to you includes giving up our comforts and doing more than we are doing now and you are trying to understand why we don't do more. Perhaps it can be asked a different way without judgement? I can't speak for you or others but for me, my life is comfortable. Many others are not. Why i was born into the role i was born and they into the role they were born, i cannot say. Was i born into this role to give it all up, or give all i can, and do all i possibly can to 'fix' the world problems? If so, then it would take far more than an intellectual argument or excerpts from the Bible to convince me of that. I am confident that i am fulfilling the role i have been given and assigned and it is in a field without guilt and condemnation nor fear for the things i do not understand. In reality, i can do no more than i am doing for now else i would be doing it. All could's and should's are hypotheticals with no basis in reality. And i would be so bold to say that you are doing all that you really 'can' do for now or else you would be doing more. The world to me is not broken. Yes, it is evolving as are we all, and even in the hunger and lack that appears present, it is to me as designed a perfect self regulating system. Now that is hard to accept when you look at pictures such as you have posted but nevertheless that is the way it is. I do what i do and you do what you do and others do what they do to make this what they 'see' as a 'better' place. What you and i do can be no more than the grace that is afforded us. To believe otherwise, in my view and experience, is to live in guilt and condemnation that one is in some way 'not doing' what one is supposed to, is defective/broken or insufficient as created and in that state one can not see clearly that which really needs to be done. Just my thoughts on your comments, Joseph

Dear Confused.... (Just being funny of course ) Of what concern is it to you if the other is not doing all that you think they should be doing in their sphere of influence? Is it not enough that you do what you think you should be doing? Paul, I do not think there is enough money in the world to save every life. I think George said it well with his words on education. Money and food alone does not get to the root of the problem which is population and resources. Haiti receives for their size more orphan support and help than many other countries yet a visit there still shows extreme poverty with poorer families growing faster than those who have more.and a lack of resources that have been over harvested. i doubt that the caption.... is the words of the children in the picture. Not to be cold but it seems to me to be more the words of someone looking for money by implication of guilt. The words the "poor will always be with you are quoted from Jesus" If one wants to feel guilty that they have not done more then they could, then one is free to sell all they have and give it away to remove that guilt. While the picture is shocking to most all, i do not sense God placing any guilt or condemnation on me for my actions either past or present and i doubt God is placing them on another. Of course more can always be done and if one is so inclined i would suggest they follow their inclination. Joseph

Paul, There is certainly nothing stopping you or anyone from doing that if they believe that is what they should do. (selling your stuff and giving the money to the poor) I think Jesus had his mission here and each of us has ours. It is recorded he only told one person to specifically sell everything and give it to the poor and follow him. Probably to make a point. It is recorded he also said that the poor will always be here with us. I personally don't think that money will solve the problems of the poor. That of course does not prevent me from giving and i do. I presently support as you do mutiple children in multiple countries and also a senior citizen who need support in another country in addition to contributions here in the states not counting my taxes that go to the poor and welfare recipients. No big deal as i have plenty but i mention it to say this. One of the families children i help to support because they don't make enough to provide for their family recently sent me a picture. With two children already, i noticed the mother was pregnant again with child. I thought to myself, if i gave all i had to such families and they continued having more children than they could support then soon even my money would not be enough to provide for them. Giving all i have will not solve the world hunger problem. It is deeper than that. If one is hungry and without food, how can one that has food not offer it? So we give where we see genuine need but i do not feel called to sell all my possessions by Jesus or God as one might suggest as a possibility and give away all that i have been given. The kingdom of God/Heaven that Jesus spoke of to me was not of this world. It was IN the world but not OF the world. Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven does not speak to me of a physical world without the poor. It speaks of a realm of Spirit unseen but come to Earth The kingdom of Heaven is of the spirit. The kingdom of Earth is of the flesh. They are not the same and will never be the same because the nature of flesh is created and subject to birth and death and contrary by design to Spirit. At least that is my take on it. So in living here while the spirit moves me to take action in my sphere of influence and the role i have been given, it does not move me to feel guilty for what i have been given nor tell me it is God's will that i give all i have to the poor. How do i justify having more and another less? I find no need to justify any of it. It is God if any who justifies. Joseph

A couple who were never married but lived happily and lovingly together all their lives after a fatal car accident appeared at the pearly gates. St Peter sat them down in a waiting room outside the gates to discuss their life. The only thing preventing them from entering was their lack of being married. They suggested to St Peter that they were now willing and asked if they could be married now so they could enter. St Peter said, "I will check, stay here until I return and i will let you know." Days and then weeks passed and finally months later St Peter returns. He says, "Okay, the preacher will be here in 10 minutes and you can get married" Well the couple had been in this arrangement so long that while they were waiting they were concerned that after all it might not work out being married especially since they got along so well as they were. So they asked St Peter if it didn't work out could they get divorced in heaven. St Peter replied. "Look! It took me months to find a preacher up here! Do you have any idea how long it would take me to find a lawyer?

Yes i do, but only when asked or if not asked only if i feel an inward unction or sort of a feeling beyond words to do so. When asked to remember someone in my prayers, or prayer for them is requested by someone else, i will get alone and pray in the spirit (tongues) until i feel an assurance that whatever needed to be done by my intercession has been done. Some times i do not know what that is. other times i do. My understanding is only of secondary importance. Now if i am asked by a person to pray for them personally, i will wait until i feel a leading from within and hopefully receive some word of knowledge on what to say or do first and then follow through. Sometimes i will get nothing and just go and open my mouth expecting the words and positive energy to go forth. If the words are not there, they are not there. No skin off my back so to speak. Either way i do not take responsibility for anything except to be present and willing. Joseph

Cymbaljack, You will most likely get a lot of diverse answers as there is no single formal PC practice per se. Personally my prayer and worship is my life. Nothing is now formalized as it was in the past. I see prayer as a connection with God that is never broken. I no longer verbalize that connection with words except for the benefit of others who might ask for prayer or worship so that they may be edified. To worship, to me, is to love unconditionally. this to me, is the acceptance of all of God's creation as it is in the moment. Therefore i consider my life as expressed, as my worship of God. I do not judge the quality nor quantity of that worship. Just my own take on your questions, Joseph

Hi Derek, While i do see in the versus many similarities in things both found in Proverbs and related to the death of the old creature and resurrection of the new in Christ in the NT, the words it uses such as "striving hard" and "the wise man should remove his moral impurities" make it to me to be like some sort of a requirement or battle or striving work with our old nature or ego is to be done. It opens a question to me of ... Does one need to "strive hard" for something as if we need to battle and remove these so called "moral impurities" ? In my experience that only seems to strengthen ego and make it an impossible task. Rather it seems to me to be much easier just to watch the ego mind and allow whatever light one has been given to expose it for what it is which allows for a conscious alternate choice to be taken without strife or trying to remove something as if it were ones enemy. Just my own way of viewing, Joseph

Ditto, Joseph

Good points Rivanna, Except i think he was speaking to both males and females because circumcision is really not of the flesh nor is their gender in the new being. I think this chapter really makes the book, even though i haven't read past it yet. Paul hits the heart of Christianity and any religion for that matter. In my view, he separates the wheat from the chaff here. Perhaps this Chapter should be required reading for all religions? Joseph

David, Thanks for your insight into Tillich and his message. Good to hear from you again and most happy you did not resist commenting here. Joseph

Concerning PC...... "I think that what we take, if anything, to be authoritative is a personal matter. PC is a conversation, a disposition -- a way of doing religion -- not a self-contained system of religious thought in itself." -- Mike Scott

They could use that argument if they wished but i for one would not accept it as valid and it is my understanding that the intent of point 4 is not inclusive of such. Joseph

I do like the connection that Paul Tillich makes between love and forgiveness. It does seem to me that love which is unconditional acceptance of others and oneself cannot be without forgiveness. And likewise in my view, forgiveness cannot be without love. To me, forgiveness precludes exceptions and Tillich uses the word unconditional to make that point and by also saying "forgiveness is independent of anything we do". I like how he says "His (God's) love is the law of our own being" and also "that it is the law of reuniting love" To me, those words give a glismpe of love working even though it may seem like judgement, oppression , wrath and far from any human idea of love. I think he does a fair job in bringing out the point that our bitterness, feelings of rejection by life and its fears and horrors is not a result of "its objective darkness" but rather our seemingly separation from its power and source of life. Forgiveness in my own experience is key to awareness of that source. I enjoyed the read which is my first new book over the past two years (read free with Nook signup on my Android, thanks again Matt67). At a deep level i would go beyond what Paul Tillich has said in Chapter One and say... from the standpoint of that love ..... that there is in reality nothing to forgive or to be forgiven of except that which is self created by ones estrangement from God and 'other' that requires such to be re-united. Joseph

Thanks Matt67 for that information. Joseph

WS, To me, “those of all sexual orientations.” does not mean "how you like your sex". To me a Pedofile or Rapist is not a sexual orientation. A sexual orientation is either male, female or neither/Both. Joseph What is sexual orientation? Sexual orientation refers to an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions to men, women, or both sexes. Sexual orientation also refers to a person’s sense of identity based on those attractions, related behaviors, and membership in a community of others who share those attractions. Research over several decades has demonstrated that sexual orientation ranges along a continuum, from exclusive attraction to the other sex to exclusive attraction to the same sex. However, sexual orientation is usually discussed in terms of three categories: heterosexual (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to members of the other sex), gay/lesbian (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to members of one’s own sex), and bisexual (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to both men and women). This range of behaviors and attractions has been described in various cultures and nations throughout the world. Many cultures use identity labels to describe people who express these attractions. In the United States the most frequent labels are lesbians (women attracted to women), gay men (men attracted to men), and bisexual people (men or women attracted to both sexes). However, some people may use different labels or none at all. FROM THE

Neon, It seems to me that you certainly won't find that requirement in the 8 points of PC and for good reason. It has been the subject of much division in the churches. As suggested by others here, it has different meanings to different people and i have never heard a PC object to such a ritual or symbolism although that does not exclude that there may be some who identify as PC and still hold on to such as a requirement. Joseph

Jenell, It seems to me that sometimes we want something so bad that it creates a blindness to sound reasoning and judgement. I think it happens at times to us all. Strong wants and desires do have their attachments and pitfalls. Sorry to hear about the issue and hoping that real learning takes place as a result of any suffering incurred. Joseph

Said goodbye to my parents a few years ago also and now thinking about it after reading your post. To let go for me , in a sense, is to embrace all. I am reminded of a saying that a motorcycle friend of mine use to say joyfully all the time , no matter what was happening. "It doesn't get any better than this" I have come to understand what is hidden beneath those words and it leads me to also say, i am grateful to my parents. I think they were perfect in their own way even though our eyes and head might say different.

Thank you Bill. And the same wishes for you. Now to try and curb my gluttony for all the fine food today. Joseph