Cynthia

Why is the human intellect the standard of rational and irrational? I am sincere, not snotty - promise There are light, sound, and particle waves that we know about that we cannot perceive or completely know (since by observing we change them). Does that make it irrational? I have to assume that there are lots of things in the world (let alone universe) that I cannot perceive and will not ever know. My dog can't see color (so they say ), but she can smell and sense lots of things I can't. I don't see how that has anything to do with rational vs irrational. ?????? Look forward to your reply when it seems obvious!!!

Well said Earl.

Cool Aletheia! I see it that way also. Panta - perhaps the idea of conservation of matter? Matter = energy = matter = ... It's all there. It's all been there. We perceive it differently (matter vs energy), but that doesn't change the interconnected reality of it. This is that!

I'd be very interested. Fair warning... I know virtually nothing about it now, but I'd love to learn!

Hi Admin! Several people have brought up adding a new section for thoughts about other religious traditions. Hybrids, other, whatever. Would you consider adding this? Thanks!

Wow - great thread. I think that as we worship God with our minds we can remember the ancient Hebrews who would not call God by name... because it would limit "Him"... If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him... if you experience "folly", take a breath - God is BIG. There's a great song... Your love is deep and Your love is High Your love is long Your love is wide Deeper than my view of grace higher than this worldly place longer than this road I travel wider than the gap you fill. Check out the stars tonight... soooo biiiiiggggggg

Panta - great post... "All the properties of necessary existence must also be necessary. In other words, for God to exist as stated in #1, essence and existence must logically be synonymous. " "If, therefore, God creates, he must do so necessarily. This means that God can never notcreate. I (with my husband) can create children. This property is necessary to human beings as a group in order for the group to continue. I may or may not create. I do not constantly create. Wouldn't God have the same leway? Or, perhaps more in line with previous analogies... People can grow their fingernails to long curled entities; most people choose not to; some people do. it is not necessary. People can create fat cells. It is not necessary (perhaps inevitable...) God can create things that are part of "Him" - but why does that have to lead to "#1 God is alone. God is all that is. There is no "where" God is not. There is no "thing" for God to relate to. God does not change. #2 God creates/manifests finite beings within Godself. " ???

Thanks everybody!! I think the cell in a body idea makes panentheism work. My cells are part of me, but they do their own thing; and sometimes do it to my detriment. Part of me, but only recognizable as me if closely examined (dna??? ) - not obviously me on sight. That analogy seems to fit.

Thanks Earl.... got an ah-ha! Two ideas (see other panentheism thread & yours/hanh's)... I hadn't put them together. This is That!!! Cool.

Ok, here's one from my husband... The soul is part of God. The mind has the potential to separate us from God. That starts to make sense.... anybody???

Hmmmm. Aletheia... where you talk about "will" being neutral, I thought of perhaps indwelling God being neutral and allowing choice. Still though, why does a tree not struggle to be a tree? Why do humans struggle with what we are? Is that the origin of species-centric (only people have souls) beliefs??? It seems a better argument for fallen man - separate from God/the rest of creation. I guess to answer your other questions, the indwelling seems different to me from being the same thing/object. Again, a fish in the water vs. all water. The fish can, at it's peril - granted - jump out of the water. Darby - I agree - here's the quote from Roman's 7 that I was also thinking of. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. (7:21-23) Thought-provoking stuff.

Ok, I think that free will makes us separate from God because, at the simplest level, if we were the same as God how could we have a different will? If I am part of God how can I be unGodly? If God is indwelling in me, as a separate being, then parts of me can be unGodly and parts of me Godly dependent on my choices and behaviors.

We could start a Hans Kung for Pope campaign

Agreed Ani and Des That said, even if (I saw the MRI too... very little intact brain tissue) they did an autopsy, and decided that she could understand and was trying to communicate... IF you believe in the general christian worldview... WHY would you choose a nursing home over death??? Why are fundamentalist christians so afraid of death??? This sounds like a rant, but it is a soul-felt question. If they are so very sure - of God, the bible, God's plan, etc.... WHY is death bad? I am not sure (intellectually) of anything... my views change with experience and information... but being part of God, heaven, however you slice it.... wow - awesome.

Thanks for the link! I also pray for the pope along with all who are in need (in other words, all of us.) "God bless us, every one" - perhaps the best movie line of all time I also hope that the next pope will bring people to God, in a way they can respect. How sad and disconnecting to be loyal to a religion/culture such as catholicism and be unable to behaviorally respect it's leader. I think it forces people into guilt and hypocrisy... and away from God. As does all legalism.

It makes a lot of sense, intellectually, Aletheia. I still run into the experience ... I experience God as other... I feel different when I take time to let God in .... I act unlike God when I don't try. My goal is to be one with God; it seems to me that the problem of existence is that I'm not one with God. Make any sense?????? This fits in with the question of evil I asked earlier.... I like the idea of panentheism, but doesn't free will (which most of us seem to agree on) make us separate beings?

Opinionated, me????? Oh my!!! All too true Darby! I would say that I see that as a human failing... to not be able to see the other side or the points in common. I think that being able to really hear what another thinks/believes and to value it as such is much more Godly than I am at this point.

Exactly Darby... that's where lily is right. Look at the history of forcing people to accept christianity for their own good... the JW's have a point about christmas trees, easter eggs, etc. Exclusive beliefs lead to superiority and a "God-given" mission (jihad perhaps?) to spread your beliefs. I don't mean this in a mean way, but to help you understand at least my thought processes... the idea that GOD - omnipotent, ever-present, etc GOD could choose one way... one culture and exclude the rest of his creation from Himself... seems indescribably ethnocentric and, well, basically, silly.

I just posted on another thread about being right... If we are all connected to/part of God.... then we are all connected to each other. Godliness will always bring us together; humanness will always divide into us and them. That's the way to tell if you're on the right path. It's so very easy to see us and them... especially in the U.S. right now. Just remember that most people, day to day, are trying to live their lives as best they can. Most spiritual people are trying to do what they perceive as right. The best thing we as progressives and/or liberals can do is to go into discussions with a full awareness of our existence within God. To work diligently at dialogue; to preach the gospel.... with and especially without words. It occurs to me that there is a part of me/a force I eperience regularly that does not strike me a being part of God... the drive to do wrong/to exclude/to pride/etc... what does panentheism make of this????

What if we took panentheism seriously....??? Neither fundie nor pinko, neither medieval nor post-toastie.... We have found the enemy and it is us If we are all connected to/part of God.... then we are all connected to each other. Godliness will always bring us together; humanness will always divide into us and them. That's the way to tell if you're on the right path. It's so very easy to see us and them... especially in the U.S. right now. Just remember that most people, day to day, are trying to live their lives as best they can. Most spiritual people are trying to do what they perceive as right. The best thing we as progressives and/or liberals can do is to go into discussions with a full awareness of our existence within God. To work diligently at dialogue; to preach the gospel.... with and especially without words.

the greatest commandment... love God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your strength... this is worship.

Agreed Darby! The problem is the church... and most religion or any human endeavor... falls badly when presented with power. The old adage - power corrupts... I think that is why many people are suspicious of religion - and why they should be... no one's interpretation (and that's all we've got to offer folks) is perfect. The Westminster Confession of Faith even addresses this. Encouraging a relationship with God - whether or not you agree with the individual's "answers" on social or theological questions - seems, to me, to be the most mature and Godly response.

If the only prayer you ever say in your entire life is thank you, it will be enough. Â Meister Eckhart

BroRog... can you imagine the discussion about asexual reproduction??? LOL So, in this amoeba (is there an out of the amoeba?), are we like the mitochondria? Or part of the fluid?

I tend to call it "or else theology"... all I can say is, a contract made under duress is an invalid contract. Hence the scripture about those who cry "lord, lord" and I (Jesus) will say, "I have never known you". (paraphrase - to lazy to go look it up right now). I think of hell as separation from God... I really like CS Lewis' portrayal in The Great Divorce. That made a lot of sense to me. Choosing to be the grumble rather than a human who grumbles... its now, then, anytime, anywhen