Cynthia

B-E-A-U-tiful lily! Thanks.

Aletheia - Hang in cyberfriend... I get my feelings hurt here too. I don't think it's intended. Just the lack of 90% of communication (tone, expression, body language) Hope you'll come back! Re: fish in ocean... I think that is the perfect analogy for panentheism. The fish is not necessary to the water but has a symbiotic relationship with it (environmentally); the fish is in and is permeable to and infused with the water and needs the water for survival. I would love to have God gills! Maybe the Pineal gland???? Panta - the information isn't tough, and I enjoy your thoughts. The eyes glazing over part on the other thread, at least for me, involves the long semantic discussions. I have a hard time paying attention to subtle differences in definitions of words that I rarely run across and that no one seems to quite agree on! I enjoy the exchange of ideas... I thought the limit on jargon was an inspired thought by des. It seems we have a better shot at exchanging ideas rather than definitions.

Wind - I understand and agree on the pardigm shift and change in worldview... the *interesting* part to me was the idea that when enough people (???) needed a change, the *evidence* would appear. That nature has evidence in reserve for our needs and is flexible in providing it to allow changes in worldview... perplexing... thought-provoking.... (Yes, it was from Chapter four... CS Lewis and McLaren.)

Great thread! Re: proof of God - I think that is a decision you make on the front end of experience. There is proof of God all over the place - not big voice from the sky proof - on that I agree with Altheia - but proof that you can choose to interpret for or against the existence of God based on the incompleteness of the evidence. (I should get a cup of coffee down before trying philosophy!!!) Re: co-creators - I think you're saying interconnectedness... which I believe in - all things being connected, perhaps as part of God (small circle)... (cellular intelligence/chaos theory) the species-centric part is where I diverge... I think that trees and bunnies do a much better job of being what/who they are... of fully taking part in their Godness and bunnieness than human beings do. Much about this in eastern meditation literature. Re: tragedy/death in general... true Aletheia... I think it is the knee jerk reaction to loss of life (or terms of life) in a way that you cannot protect yourself from... lots of this in the news (Shiavo), but I haven't heard (given that I try hard not to listen to coverage, this may not be surprising ) anyone talking about death in a way that makes sense to me... faith gave me a new take on death. It doesn't strike me as the worst thing... or even as a bad thing. If you are strongly christian, wouldn't death be something to look forward to??? Along with, of course, the grief of the people you would leave here for a while... but joyful overall??? I believe Paul speaks to this, feeling obligated to stay for the cause, but longing for death. I believe that christian funerals used to be joyful send-offs in some christian traditions. Oh death, where is thy sting.... I don't understand the "life" (defined as a beating heart) at all costs from a christian standpoint.

Thanks for starting this des! The other one is interesting... but my eyes keep glazing over 1.I like the panentheistic idea. 2. God is personal - indwelling; active in the world without interfering in free will - kindof a Bruce Almightly type God. 3. Our universe? Yes. God is everywhere - to me 4. DK, doesn't really appeal... as noted in the McLaren thread... is that the same sort of create reality with your thoughts sort of thing? 5. No. I think he likes it... most of the time. A parent model comes to mind. Parents love there kids (most of the time ) and have a hard time imagining life without them...(sorry, drifted off to wealth and the carribean for a minute...) but would have had a good, if different, life without them. Looking forward to everybody's opinions!

I'm about halfway through A New Kind of Christian... not as funny as the chapter 0 in Generous Orthodoxy that I read on the web... but very interesting. He's got it in a kind of stilted story format, but he explains that in the intro... it seems to work to get the points across. Funny, the main character notes his fear that by letting go of his religious ideas he'll become liberal and that scares him. In parentheses he wonders if there are people who feel the same way about thinking in a way consistent with conservatives! Clearly there are!!! I've had that nightmare making thought recently. Anne Lamott writes about feeling Jesus in the room with her (when she was distainful of christians) and telling him "no - I'd rather die" Anyway, he quotes some CS LEwis stuff I haven't read... almost like Unity or CS (check me on this des) - kind of a fuzzy reality; the facts will appear when people need different answers ... any thoughts anybody? This is unappealing to me, but I keep running across it.... The list of characteristics of the modern age is interesting... much of the stuff we rail about, but he also lists that it *was* a "critical" age - where you were either right or wrong... that postmodern thinking may be more focused on being right with God... not just being right.

I call myself a Christian and mean that I am a follower of Jesus the Christ... I try not to get caught up in explaining the distinction ... as that pulls me away from my goal. When people see the results of a close, non-dogmatic relationship, they often ask... and then, you get a chance to show them... God is big... God is good... the greatest commandment... not so much the man-made additions... explaining the distinction... while I understand the motivation all too well , only separates us... makes us "special" (hear the accent???). Makes us like the people we want to be different from... put down the mote... back to the plank

Sorry - don't know of any... esp. in the deep south where I am! I listen to Teaching Co tapes and books on tape when I don't want music. Then I check this board!!!

Welcome back Beach! I have a new approach... when I can muster it... in the midst of services I don't agree with, I focus on praying for "them" - Pastor, others in the congregation - to "get it", to "see it the way God wants them to see it". I share a laugh with God (mostly because He knows I mean the way I see it) Then I focus on the symbolic meaning, the deeper truth... and back to my own plank. God's with you in those services... share a look and a laugh

Wind - it's even easier... go to the site, left click (at least it worked on the first one) on the picture, and choose "save". There it is! I also saved "God Hates Shrimp"... I love it when it comes up on the screensaver

Lily - maybe instead of genetic propensity, you'd prefer God shaped hole??? Sounds practically the same... theorecticlly more affirming of God

That is fabulous! I also liked this one: We are not human beings having a spiritual experience, we are spiritual beings having a human experience.

Very true Darby... I think that is why most people refuse to discuss religion and politics.... unless you are willing to disagree, there is really no middle ground on a lot of these beliefs. I can say that there are many paths to God and try some, but an exclusivistic christian would feel that I was endangering my soul. Clearly a time to speak up to a friend or "neighbor". Can we agree? Probably not. Agree to disagree? I can, but I don't see any price to this... the other person sees a huge price. I think this is the fundamental problem. On the other hand, from my perspective, exclusivistic christians essentially damn a lot of godly, holy people; or act as if they are damned and thusly feel that they are less... less human, less entitled to whatever, etc. I have a problem with that. Someone who believes that 144,000 people are going and not the rest will not have a hard time writing people off. I am convicted that God does not write anybody off. I think that is the source of the animosity on both sides. It is a world-view... meaning information that I base my life on. If I change my mind, what else do I have to change??? A lot. Very scary... to both sides. As you said to Aletheia, Darby - this is not directed at you personally. I enjoy your contributions.

reject anything that contradicts scripture... wouldn't that include scripture??? . logical, clear, completely useless.

Ani-man - I think the idea is not a quid quo pro exchange of soul for snickers (well maybe on a good PMS day ), but the idea which you discuss earlier. Some choices (perhaps influenced or predestined???) are important - ie moving to FL, moving to NY, interests, business failing and they set your range of choices. I think that stealing the nickel or candy changes your set of choices... perhaps in a way we will never perceive... but yet.... This goes, in my bizarro mind, along well with the ideas of teach only love (Jeep) and co-creating the world (lily), and ideas of a universal sum total of love and pain which we each individually add to or subtract from. Whether it's (in my extremely limited understanding) string theory, chaos theory, or religion, it seems clear that the evidence is in. We are all connected. All. People, planet, life. Like it or not.

Jeep - for what it's worth, I do think of you as someone seriously studying A Course in Miracles. Like Paganism, I just don't know much about it, so requests for info were well-intentioned and sincerely curious. Sorry if you've been feeling ostracized! Des - I studied Tae Kwon Do for a while, same kind of dojo - but that is a very interesting point about the katas. (fighting yourself).... hmmmm, that really does make sense. Thanks for the interesting thoughts. Altheia, thanks for starting this thread... to me, the heart of progressive christianity is the desire to explore other belief systems - both to understand them (for those of us who do that ) and to utilize what we learn on our own path.

Lily - *that* look... the "come hither" or the "get the &^^%% off the computer already" ??? Sorry, couldn't resist! I feel/sense/perceive a great deal of communication from God through nature. It sounds nuts, but I take beautiful cloud formations, light on whatever, birds, etc. as personal messages. No way to explain it; but I KNOW in that weird, cool way. Once in a while my husband and I perceive this sort of communication at the same time... talk about a blessing

Panta - apologies! Got caught up in the thoughts and neglected condolences. Just imagine cat heaven... lots of mice, no one to get mad when you bring them in... birds that are slow, all the adventure you could want and then all the quiet, warm milk, lots of petting...

Very cool. It only seems difficult to me if I try to use words... the yin-yang seems to sum it up.

Very interesting - thanks! I've some reading/listening (a la Teaching Co) re: different religions and find it fascinating. I have missed the Pagan belief system and had the obviously incorrect idea that it was no longer an active religion. I enjoy filling my excluvistic christian friends in on the Pagan origins of most of our holiday fun... I often see God most clearly in nature... may be good fit :> Oh boy, a new word for my self-defining list. LOL

I just read this on gratefulness.org: "As we approach the Equinox, with its equal blend of darkness and light, we renew our commitment to live in harmony with all of life." Is that part of the Pagan idea of the spring equinox? It struck me given the other discussion of dark/light, evil/God, cold/hot. thanks!

If God didn't exist, would there Be???

While I agree that time is not real..... I haven't figured out a way to see around it. Time as a concept is so very central to our view of the world, reality, causation, and interconnectedness. I don't think God has that limitation.

Hans Kung... his book, "Why I am still a Christian" opened the doors of the church for me. He was the first progressive I encountered... finding his book when and where was definately " a God thing". Most of his books are quite scholarly and dense. This one is very brief and readable. The amazon reviews are here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...g=UTF8&v=glance Thanks for the reminder! He is a fabulous example of someone who thinks about and discusses faith without loosing the practice of faith.

"in order for hot to exist, so must cold..." actually, I read an interesting proof attributed to Einstein recently that stated that cold is the absence or heat and evil is the absence of God. It struck a chord with me... I'll see if I can find the whole proof to post. found it in time to edit Does evil exist? The university professor challenged his students with this question. Did God create everything that exists? A student bravely replied, "Yes, he did!" "God created everything? The professor asked. "Yes sir", the student replied. The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil". The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth. Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?" "Of course", replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?" "What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question. The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat." The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?" The professor responded, "Of course it does." The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present." Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?" Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil." To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light." The professor sat down. The young man's name — Albert Einstein.