Cynthia

I like my pastor's take on science and the world - basically, God gave us two ways to know him; the bible (he's more of a literalist) and the world. By learning how the world operates (science) you learn about God.

Aletheia - don't be jealous - it's free with an amazon.com visa At least that's what I told my husband! BTW - Beach - he's reading God's Politics and says Wallis writes positively about progressive christianity.

Hey Aletheia - there's a great teaching co. class on the New Testament that discusses a lot of this - authorship, perspectives, different audiences/messages in different gospels. Historical Jesus and one on Paul too. Lots of $, but they all are guaranteed to go on sale at least 1 time per year! :> I hadn't heard of NT Wright... I'll have to look for one of his books once I get over the fascination of comparing the notes in my NIV study bible to the ones in my New Interpreters Study Bible!!!

I think you're right Darby - but, a rose by any other name... I know a lot of people who would not call themselves christians (some other religions, some none) who exemplify Christ in a way I cannot yet match by deed, compassion, and love of others. Joesph Campbell talks about levels of concepts. The 1st level - perhaps the divine, cannot be discussed in words. The second level can only be alluded to with language, and by the time words are meaningful, we are already down to the 3rd level of things. I'm not explaining it well, but basically I think we have to be careful about getting trapped in language when language is ever so much more limited than we usually realize. I'm a big believer in concurrent validity. Basically, if you find the same information in a variety of sources/perspectives it is more likely to be true. I think that while I attend a christian church and (in the South) identify as a christian, and find truth in the bible, I also find things that bring me much closer to God in other religions and traditions. an open question - perhaps another thread??? What practices do you find helpful in creating thin spots ( a la Borg)? For me, right now, it is time in nature, meditation, and zen koans.

Thanks A - I like this board to get away from all the us vs. them mentality that seems, to me, to have so much to do with human nature (fallen or not! :>) and so very little to do with God. God is big. Plenty of room for everybody. Have you heard the song - no facts about it - but the lyrics go something like: Come. and go with me. to. my father's house. It's a big big house with lots and lots of rooms. and a big big table with lots and lots of food. There's a big big yard where we can play football. It's my father's house. Cynthia

This is the trouble I have with the left (of which I am a part) and the reason Bush is still president. When we have a well-spoken, well-informed, spokesperson we pick them apart instead of supporting them. The right often goes the other way and supports people who they don't agree with in the name of party or philosophical unity. We need to get along. GOOD GRIEF - I sing Jim Wallis' praises every chance I get. He is the best chance I see for Godly people to unite on what is important rather than on the party lines. His being a conservative (theologically) evangelical allows people to listen to him that would never listen to someone who called themselves a progressive. He also gets the people who see christian as a 4-letter word a pause and perhaps (per his email from sojo.net yesterday - posted here somewhere) the opportunity to even consider faith as a viable choice. ARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH (ok, deep breath) Give peace a chance folks. We have a lot of common ground and that's what it's all about... not walking in lockstep.

I am plagerizing this statement about repentence, but I can't remember who to attribute it too! Sorry. Basically when asked why repentence is so painful, they replied that it is not as punishment but just the real consequence of having turned away from God and having to give up our will (perhaps again). As for the verses you quote Darby - I would agree with Des. I look at the bible as being written in a time when stories were told to make points and were regularly and honestly changed to suit their audience. For example, I find it very interesting to understand more about the culture in which parables were told and the specific audience of each gospel. The prodigal son: the father runs to his son when he returns. Ok, nice. My Dad might run to me... I've seen him run. He'd be excited and happy if running, and we get that. In the Middle East, then and now, adult men do not run. It is/was (apparently) a beyond apalling sign lack of dignity. We don't always place much importance on dignity, but that culture did. It changes the story. In this case, we get the same point, but that is not always true. Many of the parables were apparently told in such a way as to be funny and keep their audience's attention. We miss most of the jokes. Personally, and I know I've said this before, I go with the sum of the law. Glad to have you here - Cynthia

I found this on beliefnet - thought y'all would enjoy it too. How Hot Is Hell? January 26, 2005 | 3:00 p.m. The following is supposedly an actual question given on a University of Washington chemistry mid-term. The answer by one student was so "profound" that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well. Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)? Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following: First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added. This gives two possibilities: 1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose. 2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over. So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that "it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you, and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct...leaving only Heaven, thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting "Oh my God." Note: This student received the only "A."

"And because of this..I think moderates and Progressives should join forces. The Evangelicals and the Fundamentals have joined forces...therefore the Moderates should join with us and NOT the Evangelicals who are already bed fellows with Fundamentalists." "Welcome those who are weak in faith, but not for the purpose of quarreling over opinions" (Romans 14 - in my brand new New Interpreter's Study Bible - thanks for the recommendation, it is great) The messages that I value in christianity and progressive christianity is inclusiveness, openness to other's opinions and radical compassion. That's what Jesus was about to me. God is big. God is good. God is personal. God wants a relationship with us; and there is a wonderful reality to be experienced there - the love that surpasses knowledge. That's my version of evangelism... :> Let's not stoop to the level of the people who are defining christianity in a narrow or hateful way. That is exactly the problem. I understand all to well the urge to put down or even demonize groups that you may perceive (and that I do perceive) as having a phenomenally negative impact on the things I hold dear (God, country, family, planet, society... there is no end to this list), BUT, to do that makes us what we purport to distain. Jesus is about radical compassion. Grace (ahhhhhh, the joy, the peace of grace) cannot be earned, even by belief. I believe that we are called, especially now, to act in grace and love and compassion... towards everyone. To try to be Jesus to others. It's hard enough without anger and contempt. I so respect Jim Wallis for bringing the message of liberal evangelical christianity in such a way that people can hear him. He comes across, even in writing or on TV as a God-filled man. The more people of faith can do that and put God first, the more we will be able to discuss big issues. In Christ all things are possible..... Cynthia

It's all very interesting to discuss the meanings of the different "versions" of christianity. I'll admit to a bit of fun with people who take denomination as a sign of salvation (wouldn't Jesus be proud of all our divisions - neither Jew nor Greek...). But, I have found that very few people in the pews of most churches have any grasp of the statement of faith of their denomination. I think for most people, choosing a church is about family tradition, compromising with a spouse, or finding a thin spot. The doctrine is of limited importance to many. The activities in which the church is involved (or in which you can be involved at the church) are more important. I think that actually makes a lot of people a lot more progressive than they would realize. They are not so concerned about specifics but see a bigger picture.

I beliieve evangelical literally means "good news" from the Greek??? Help me out somebody! :> I think that currently, while many people hear it as a political position, people who identify as evangelicals would tell you that their priority is the great commission. In other words, evangelicals believe that they are called to spread the good news. The only part I disagree with, or, better said, that makes me sad... is that the good news they are talking about has only to do with the Passion... not the path. Yancey, Lucado, Eldridge all write beautiful things. There is much to be learned if we (this is a tough one for me) can get off the high horse of "understanding" or being smart. Simple faith has a lot of beauty to it that I think I miss when I get on an intellectual bent. Cynthia

Exactly! Look at all the people who told you that they "survived" Christmas.... a perfect example in my mind. It's so very sad to see people existing instead of living. As John Eldridge says, Christ said He came to give us life, abundant life, not a list of chores. :> Cynthia

I don't think so, it has been a couple of years since I read them though... If you like Yancey, he wrote some great books with a hand surgeon/leprosy specialist/missionary Paul Brand. The Gift of Pain, Fearfully and Wonderfully Made, and , I think, one other. They are also fabulous. Yancey has a special place in my heart. He was the first to make it clear to me that devoted christians could have all the same problems with institutional christianity that I do. He really opened up the option of faith within a community for me and, I think, made me much more aware that human institutions will always fail... but not necessarily for lack of trying. That is actually in the Westminster Confession also. For me, a critical point. I started listening to Early Christianities (I have the audio 'cause I like to be able to move around... too many years in school to sit and watch a lecture :>) while I cleaned out old files today. He spends a lot of time setting up the class! I'm on # 4 and he is just getting started. I love the idea that christianity survived not because of the doctrine but because of the experience that transcends time. True to my experience (much to my surprise initially!). Cynthia

The Kingdom of God is spread about the earth but men do not see it... that's one way to look at it. :> Perhaps we're not taking now seriously enough. Lots of choices in terms of mindfulness, gratitude, having enough, contentment, etc. Another is spelled out in The Great Divorce - yeah, sorry to keep bringing up the same book. But really, the whole premise of the book is the divorce between heaven and hell. No unpassable chasm, but choices... it is hard to explain, but actually pertains well to the above paragraph as well. Every choice counts and, to some extent, determines whether you experience heaven or hell. As a practical example, imagine walking into a group with a big smile and pos. attitude or a scowl and a neg. attitude. It will go differently. Free will; choose carefully. Remember the sum of the law.

Aletheia - me neither. Besides, anthropomorphism comes so very naturally :>. I just don't think God can be completely known - if you meet the Buddha on the road... I don't know about the DVD - I often have good luck with the used ones on Amazon. How're your Teaching Co. classes going? Cynthia

Wow, go to work and miss a great discussion! If you are looking for proof that God can feel more than love, check out the Old Testament. Bill Moyers' Genesis panel discussion (PBS and book form transcript) decided that a common theme in Genesis was God being royally (:>) ticked off by people. My personal experience of God is not so much pity when I'm in a spot... "He" usually chuckles. Cynthia

Chuck - Sorry if I offended, I have been in "the angry place" for way too long... I completely agree with you, I'm just trying to get a little mental distance for my peace of mind. Believe me, I know it's catastrophic from here - I'm hoping that a more cosmic perspective will get me closer to "this too shall pass". Cynthia

CS Lewis and John Eldridge would (I think!) both say that what is important to God is our relationship with him or our love for him. This could be mandated or built into the system, but then it would lose it's value. God pursues us in love. We have free will so that our love, when given in return (we love that He first loved us) has value. Both of them (and I agree) see all of our pleasures in this world as faint shadows of the pleasures in heaven. The idea that our vices don't reflect us feeling too strongly, but not strongly enough. If you're interested in this idea - read the Song of Songs as if it is you and God. Different but widely accepted; odd but so very touching. John Eldridge is a conservative, excluvistic christian who writes books of grace (sadly he stops with believers, but the ideas are good) and passion. He agrees with Joesph Campbell that you should follow your bliss to find your place/mission in the world. His last book, Waking the Dead, is about spiritual warfare. Journey of Desire and The Sacred Romance are opening legalistic hearts all over the place.

Chuck - I agree about the sinister part. That is the primary problem I have with the religious right. Things are not about what they are about. Being more tolerant (see Des's other posts) leaves us unarmed and unprepared. I think that Jon Stewart has used humor and ridicule to wake people up to the sinister under/over(?)tones of this culture war. I thought the article above my previous post was similar. Sometimes people can't/won't discuss things seriously that they can see from a lighter tone. Really, how can anyone have a serious conversation about a cartoon sponge being gay or not. Hilarious. Except when people do. BTW, seeking, asexual reproduction - he could be doing it right now while my kids are watching... Ahhhhhhhhhhh! :> Off to call the sponsors. Cynthia

His books are great too! He is, somewhat like CS Lewis... he has an exclusivistic belief, but is not easily pegged into a category. He understands grace. What's So Amazing About Grace is an excellent book that many conservative christians have a very hard time reading. There is a video interview with him on Beliefnet. I think it is a link on the home page. Cynthia

I highly recommend Borg's The Heart of Christianity. If you've read (or tried to read) his others, I thought this was much less dry. It is heartening (pun intended) and informative.

Agreement, how lovely!!! Usually when I try to explain my religious/spiritual views in any depth I get "the look". y'know the one... this is way more fun. :>

Darby - I believe that the bible is true, but not literally true. True in a bigger sense - that is timeless. Literal truth is a current cultural ideal, this was not the case in the first century. The way I understand it, true then did not mean reporting the facts, it meant taking a truth and making it understood. Honestly, and, again gently, I don't understand how it is possible to see the bible as literally true when you read the inconsistencies just in the synoptic gospels of literal fact. For example, what time was Jesus crucified? How many wise men were there? As for the base of my actions and beliefs, I go with Jesus. The sum of the law and the prophets is love thy neighbor as thyself (which I read as the golden rule) and Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and strength. I don't think you can go wrong if you follow those. How about this as a compromise (smiling): The first person to get those two commandments/rules/concepts and apply them without fail to their own life gets to make up the rest of the rules. It won't be me. :> Cynthia

I love to read C.S. Lewis. Although our views on the nature of, or perhaps the rigidity of belief about, Jesus differ, he offers very poignant and well-spoken ideas and commentary that is very consistent with my beliefs. I see him as a true/non-hypocritical/honest/intellectual conservative christian. He doesn't say lunatic by the way, I believe it is something close to: He (Jesus) is either God or on the level of a man who says he is a poached egg. Hilarious. I don't agree, but I can enjoy and benefit from good-natured, christian minded discourse about differences of theology. enjoy your books! The Great Divorce and Screwtape Letters are my favorites. Cynthia

Hey Des, I love your posts and it seems you believe that an open mind is a good thing. Let's not discourage people from seeking ideas that may be new and threatening to them... God knows we need more seekers and less acceptance of what we already think! :>