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Cynthia

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Everything posted by Cynthia

  1. David - I'm just acknowledging that, no matter how grand and pure the vision, no matter how mature, honest, intelligent, etc then people - - - it is still a group of people. Historically, we (people) tend to develop problems with leadership, corruption, disagreement on principles, inclusion/exclusion, etc. seemingly without exception. As Jim Wallis says, this is just the next reformation. It has happened about every 500 years according to him. I'm advocating taking the whole idea of re-inventing the church less seriously since we have pretty good evidence that it will not be lasting or pure, and getting about the business of being the church.
  2. Such a wonderful discussion. I agree that it would be wonderful to find a community of like-minded people. That has been the primary value of this site (mostly a few years ago when it was very active) to me. I'm so glad that it has re-awakened. I think that the primary problem with group-making is leadership. I would be perfectly fine with creating groups and levels of understanding.... as long as I am the one making the lists. When other people make lists, I tend to disagree. Then back to the same old same old. I have come to believe that we (people) are never more alike than we are when we feel completely different/separate/unmatched. I think that the "questions" of biblical literacy, abortion, homosexuality, etc. in politics are attempts to create a believer's table. Trying to find a group that we can feel safe with, accept the opinions of, etc. The problem is finding a litmus test in a set of infinite variables. Maybe a math genius could create an equation to sort people to tables - but I'd still want to be the one weighting the variables!!! So............. where does that leave us on a practical level??? My current understanding (which I of course think is a developmental step forward ) is that progress is made, peace is attained when we realize that there is only one table and we're all there and (so unfair) of equal value and worth and .... and.... that we're all pieces of the same whole. So, perhaps the answer, as always, (and I do find this annoying ) just involves challenging myself to change. To not get caught up in being right (not knowing that I am will take more than a lifetime, I think!), or better, or more.... to just be. To be peace, love, compassion, justice, truth. To do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly with my God..... eh? Meanwhile, thanks for being a group that I enjoy and feel matched with in the quest for intellectual worship and a living faith.
  3. McKenna - sounds interesting! I just found the emergent podcast website - awesome!!! Thanks for the info! Re: the Borg comment by DavidK, I think he meant the one mind race of the Borg in Star Trek, rather than Marcus. Re: Jesus and Buddha, Marcus Borg wrote a great book of quotes from Jesus and Buddha - on opposing pages - very interesting how similar it all is. If you can overcome the hearsay of The Gospel of Thomas (you can find it on Beliefnet.com), the collection of quotes it contains all sound rather Eastern as well. Just to throw in another discomfort.... In Islam, one of the morning prayers is, "Only God is God". So very true, so very comforting. Like Soma said - just immerse yourself in God, or aspects of God if you prefer multiple names, and enjoy. Yeah, Soma - I'd do Jesus a favor. That's sort of how I think of Lent... doing something that inconveniences me to remind me of all that God does for me all the time. Godspeed cyber friends!
  4. Beautiful thoughts Russ! I so agree. DavidK - I think that Russ' thoughts give good answer to your quest. Sometimes in the quest for knowledge and understanding (been there!! ) we lose track of what we really want. God is ineffable, you'll never fully understand the nature of the universe - sorry!!! I think that stepping back from the need to know and taking a season for experience may be helpful. Look in the Apocrypha - Second Esdras - it was very helpful to me at a similar point. Godspeed
  5. David - I love Narnia - that is my favorite quote from the series. I think that Christianity is right.... that's why I'm a christian. BUT, I think that Christianity along with every other religion is man-made. Man-made organizations tend to go through trends where different aspects of faith are emphasized. God is God. Mystical people can have a mystical union even when it's not popular. Different religions go through different trends at different times. Hence, there is often wisdom that is consistent with your path that is easier found or discovered in another. As for I am the way, the truth, and the light. Absolutely. I read that as follow me; do what I did; not so much intellectually profess my divinity or do the opposite of what I did and use my message to divide or exclude. Jesus is all about inclusion. At least the way I read and experience Him. As for sufficiently answering questions, sure. But an expression of my faith is knowing that God is unknowable but trying to know as much as I can about Him - by whatever name. Sufficient is nice - and perfectly acceptable. It's just so much fun to learn more about God - I can't imagine excluding knowledge from people who live obviously Godly lives under whatever banner. As CS Lewis also said - (paraphrase) if you do good under the name of a false God it counts toward God. If you do evil in the name of God, it counts towards evil. Great conversation!
  6. Soma and McKenna - what beautiful responses. Thank you for your compassionate, teaching, and loving words. I'd just add a simple thought. God is big. Many people try to make Him small so that they aren't so scared. I think they are just trying to figure out how to be safe. Totally understandable. To me, a small, knowable God is much scarier than a big, ineffable God. To me, hard and fast rules conflict with my experience of the complexity and paradoxical nature of people and life. To me, learning about God by any name, is an act of faith. It increases my sense of TRUTH at the heart of it all, and it's so very beautiful. Grace is that God will interact with all of us exactly where we are. So.... let it be. Follow your path and let others follow theirs. Some of us - especially those here, find value and faith in discussions and consideration of differing views. Some people find that discouraging and disheartening. I, and I think most others here, have no desire to upset anyone's beliefs when they are working well for them. Know thyself? To thine own self be true? All things will be well.... Godspeed all - glad the board is getting active again!
  7. Jutan - I (and probably most of the people who frequent this board as we've discussed this in the past) am glad that you found God on any terms and that your life has been enriched. God is amazing and contact with Him is so overwhelming and wonderful that I fully appreciate your desire to share that. You are right re: this being about God, not about us. So, (with a gentle smile and soft voice) might I suggest that focusing on changing other people's beliefs robs you of time and energy to show people how your beliefs effect your life and interactions. St. Francis of Assissi said it best, "Preach the gospel always. If necessary, use words". You're welcome to participate in the discussions here. You may find them more interesting down the road. Religion points the way to God but, unfortunately, many people are injured by groups who put the rules ahead of following God and forget that the rules were made to point to God. It's a common human error. Godspeed.
  8. This seems to answer the new denomination question! Perhaps progressive christians are actually Sufis!! Only God is God... oops, that's Islam! In my father's house there are many rooms... whew... back around. Great site - thanks!
  9. Just looking at this board over the past few years, it is clear that people who identify as progressives would have trouble formulating a basis for a new denomination. Wouldn't it be a shame (and just more of the same old same old that we are objecting to) to spend our available energy and interest on starting another church??? How about really thinking big - offering an option (which I agree is already present but often quiet) in existing churches and all over the country with people of faith who don't "do church"? Something along the lines of "evangelical" and the way that now meaningless word unites people across traditions. Marketing will be extremely important... even though clearly distasteful - that's one of "our" big disadvantages (along with not generally believing that people who don't join us will burn for eternity!). We have the freedom to worship quietly and often do, forgetting that there are people out there who don't perceive choice and are drowning in doubt, fear, and abstract thought . Progressive has been re-branded as liberal.... (I happily identify as both, but it's not popular!). Emergent seems to be a place where many people can land - with what seems to be agreed is the basic progressive creed - worship and let worship! Emergent also calls strongly for "believe" to be interpreted as an action verb rather than a cognitive concept. Brian McLaren, Jim Wallis, Rob Bell, even Phillip Yancey and Marcus Borg are at the forefront. Even the new president of the Southern Baptist Church said that it is time for people to know what Baptists are "for" since everyone is clear on what they are "against"!!! I think that Emergent allows people of very different theological beliefs to join together in Love for common purpose - to love God and love their neighbors - without all the in-fighting that usually divides us. Demons, human nature, or neurological impairments - usually all the good intentions are ruined by people dividing into groups rather than embracing the whole.
  10. Mine are 13 and 10. We didn't "do church" until about 6 years ago. We joined a service oriented church that, theologically is much more conservative than we are. The congregation is all over the map and the sermons are practical - mostly focused on how to take this God/christian stuff into the rest of your life. There is quite a bit of trust, safety, love, etc. from God. My kids are thriving religiously... it is so much easier for them to believe - after all they believe all the stuff we tell them! We (ok, periodically ) read aloud - right now it's Max Lucado's, God Came Near (great, short essays), watch stuff on TV (or recently saw the famous DaVinci Code) and then casually talk about it... not too organized, but we like it. Anyway, I think making God accessible, giving them information - (as we say it) God is big. When people try to say God only loves certain people, etc, they make God small. We usually talk about fear and people trying to have rules to feel safe. Thich Nhat Hanh has some good children's books as does Max Lucado. They may be old enough for Narnia (CS Lewis) - those are great to read aloud. Then, of course, Harry Potter! If you mix up secular and religious, they don't catch on and object as often !!! I think you're right in that it helps for them to have a church, some basics, and the overall identity. As any of us can attest - christianity can take you to a variety of places! Just give them the comfort level and information to know God so that they can work it out with "Him". Godspeed!!
  11. I read an interview with the new SB president. I generally have a negative view - so I was very happily surprised when he was quoted as saying that everyone knows what the SB church is against, he wants them to know what they are "for". He said that he'd like people to say that whether or not they agree with the SBC, they know that the SBC loves people. A bit of hope Jimmy Carter discusses (in Our Endangered Values) his withdrawal from the SBC due to their vast change in primary focus and function. I think (read it a long time ago) that he talked about the church being established in response to too much involvement in politics. Re the homosexuality topic - it is interesting to note that in societies with less hysteria about the topic many people seem to be attracted to members of both genders at different phases of their lives. It is much less a fixed choice than we perceive it to be. I think we do people a disservice by telling them that if they have ever had a interest or encounter with someone of the same gender that they are denying themselves by having a heterosexual relationship. Not much black and white in this world... too easy!
  12. "Ironically that's why I have been hanging out at a conservative Christian board - they are more open to dialogue than this place has been in the past few months. Who would have thought I'd be more comfortable discussing heretical and unorthodox theology with a bunch of conservatives?" I googled for you oct. - "Results 1 - 10 of about 7,260,000 for scientific study prayer" = so, millions actually. I'll be joining you - - - I used to think it was just the conservatives who were afraid of anything they didn't understand. So many very angry people here now. sad.
  13. "Thousands of good studies on prayer? I don't think so." So look them up. You keep writing the same post in response to many attempted discussions - just because you think this does not make it so. Presenting as a discussion point instead of as "fact" would be purposeful I believe this is a discussion board??? "Because then you have to explain the pregnant woman who was seriously injured in a car accident this week and her unborn child was killed... her fiance was also in the car, I'm not sure what his injuries were or what the drivers injuries were but where was God there? Why should one person be killed and another not" Well... actually, I don't. That would be the God part. If we could understand and explain God then.... uh... the mystery, the spirit, etc would be gone. As for the woman, I'm sure God was there - I don't know why He didn't intervene... I never will. But Could He have intervened? Yeah, I think so. I don't know how it works, but sometimes the physics just don't work out. I don't think God killed her child. I think chaos theory and free will "explain" how complex causation is for any given circumstance. Jerry, I agree that labeling everything as if that makes it so is pointless. I think the mystery is the interesting part! In the past, people here seemed to agree that progressive was best defined by a spirit of receptivity to new ideas and an interested tolerance to other people's ideas. This used to be a great board to have discussions on with people who disagreed or saw things from different views but could have a civil exchange of ideas. I'd love to see discussions like those again.
  14. I think that Choprah believes that God is indwelling in a pervasive sense. This is not about continuing to elevate the individual as our culture has done so very well. I think the "arguement" is more about semantics - is God in me, but separate - holy spirit or is God in me in the sense that my every cell is connected to every other cell in the world because all are pieces of God and separateness is an illusion??? Honestly, I believe both. Our perception tends to lead us to feel separate - but more and more physics and the thousands of other double blind, robust research studies that have found prayer efficacious have to be taken into account. It's just as easy to take the evidence of your own life either way - MOW, for example - the car accident - oxcam's razor - the simplest solution is usually the correct one. So, to me, that is clearly the hand of God. Intellectually, I know we'll never (at least this side of heaven) "really" know or have proof. Pragmatically, what does it hurt to see God? It does a lot of good and where's the harm? And, intuitively, we all know it was God. Hope this makes sense - no coffee yet We're due for some good discussions - I'm hopeful about this one!
  15. I didn't mean to cast aspercions on the act! I think it is very meaningful... feet in the ancient Mid East were dirty, dusty, and nasty... I have read much about it being unthinkable to wash someone's feet unless you were a very lowly servant. That Jesus would think nothing of it is very meaningful to me. As for socks, that just struck me as funny. On another level, it is disturbing that people would be uncomfortable... how metaphorical... don't look at my dirty feet/soul.....
  16. I find Matthew to be the most appealing... how about everybody else??? I've read that the Nicodemus thing is an add-on since it works in the Greek, but wasn't originally written in Greek??? And, gotta ask , how the H%% do you wash someone's feet if they have socks on?????
  17. JAM - I have had a similar set of experiences... it led me to a "whatever I am, it's not that!" phase and then, and now, "just because idiots do it, doesn't mean it is idiotic"!!! Here's a great article you may like about "Red Letter Christians" - Tony Campolo, Brian McLaren, Jim Wallis - quality guys trying to follow Jesus... the words in red. http://www.beliefnet.com/story/185/story_18562_1.html Welcome to the board!
  18. I have the Teaching Co, class on Great World Religions. They have recently updated it. VERY helpful and interesting. Also Thich Nhat Hanh and Marcus Borg have books comparing Jesus and Buddha. Interesting. www.Beliefnet.com is a great resource for everything from overviews to sacred texts of even pretty obscure religions. Comparative religion was extremely faith-enhancing for me. It all comes together at the center and it's so very beautiful.
  19. I thought the athletes were fabulous and had really worked on being sportmanlike even in very difficult moments. The announcers on the other hand, seemed determined to stab each and every one of them! I really wanted to turn the announcers off.... or make fun of them trying to stand up on a snowboard publically. :>
  20. AR - I couldn't find Joshua at any rental places - I ended up buying it on amazon for a few bucks. We'd seen parts of it on tv but couldn't seem to hit the whole thing. Then I passed it around to several friends!!!
  21. I like "Joshua". Quiet, sweet movie - basically a what would Jesus do if he was here now sort of thing. It takes a while to decide if he is Jesus. Very good.
  22. Those are the words sung at the Evangelical Presbyterian Church too.
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