Cynthia

I read (sorry - long time ago, I don't remember where) that the actor playing Jesus in the Passion was struck by lightening more than once while filming the crucifixion scene. If that's true (anybody?) then I think it is clear that focusing on the Passion misses the point. It don't get no clearer than lightening bolts folks. Perhaps we should be focusing on following Jesus - what better example of how to be human than God in human form?-, not JUST believing in Him or seeing that belief as paramount.

I like the Benediction. It reminds me of a song I've heard at a very contempory service... Your Love is deep Your love is high Your love is long and Your love is wide. Your love is deeper than my view of grace Higher than this worldly place Longer than this road I travel Wider than the gap you fill. God is big... to me, that makes it all easier. I can't understand God - there's freedom there. It makes it easier for me to focus on trusting God; on remembering and noticing all the good things He does for me all the time... to know that He's good (not safe, but good ala CS Lewis).

I like the water image. Have you ever just floated out in the ocean? If you are worried about the waves and try to avoid being washed over, you always get a mouthful. If you relax, trust, and float, they just pick you up and set you down. Always seems like a great example of faith to me... the ocean is as big and powerful as I can imagine - - - God is bigger, but my imagination is limited, so they are similar to me.

I thought you all would like this quote. It, to me, sums up to case for progressive religion. The Essential Alan Watts On FAITH Faith is a state of openness or trust. To have faith is to trust yourself to the water. When you swim you don't grab hold of the water, because if you do you will sink and drown. Instead you relax, and float. And the attitude of faith is the very opposite of clinging to belief, of holding on. In other words, a person who is fanatic in matters of religion, and clings to certain ideas about the nature of God and the universe, becomes a person who has no faith at all. Instead they are holding tight. But the attitude of faith is to let go, and become open to truth, whatever it might turn out to be. Any thoughts?

I think that church members/friends need to help Pastors by not expecting them to be perfect. It's easy to get upset about things going on in church when you don't know the whole story or understand all the variables. We have to remember that pastors are human and have strengths and weaknesses just like the rest of us... they can lead as best they can and we need to love and support them rather than nit-picking about things that have little to do with us in real terms. It's good to have people to walk with, but ultimately we walk with God, alone.

"the most fundamental modern churches that use these methodists for just that purpose" methodists are people too! They shouldn't be abused (Sorry, couldn't resist)

That's one of the Wu-Men koans from the Gateless Barrier. I like that one too!

I agree des - I think that some people like to question, challenge, and debate while it makes other people very uncomfortable to question authority. For example, I find it very faith affirming to find consistent truths among religions; in attempting to share my joy in this with others, I have found that many people find it very threatening to their faith. (So I'm careful and quiet now ). I've always questioned too - cynicism is in my nature. I know a lot of people that share this with me who reject faith altogether because of the "loud" christians. When we joined a church, these friends/family, expressed disappointment that we hadn't chosen a different religion due to the four-letter word nature of christianity these days. Convincing them that progressive christianity is an option - at least for me- that I did not check my brain at the door and did not vote for Bush - has been quite the challenge! I am hopeful that Jim Wallis' book will do as he intends - make progressive christianity a known option to people of faith - and people who would like to be of faith... re: autism, I laughed in another thread when someone asked you about being literal and not taking the bible literally. ; it seemed to me that it would be impossible for you to take the bible literally when there are clear inconsistencies! I think it is neat and wonderful that you "get" metaphor and allegory - once gotten, it is clear, obvious, and hard to imagine anyone seeing something so clearly not literal as literal!!!

I agree that it is fear, but I think it is fear that has taken a nasty twist. (perhaps just because I truely resent the hijacking of my faith and country ) The mean-spiritedness of us vs them theology is, I think, an attempt to be safe. To be in the Book of Life (once saved always saved really gets you off the hook for any inconvenient hypocrisy), to check salvation and spiritual concerns off your list once you have been to the altar. I don't think that it starts out mean... it's just that spirituality is such a moment to moment affair requiring mindfulness, attention, and effort. Most people, esp. Americans, would prefer a quick fix, a salvation pill, a guarantee. That's what they get from this belief system. Add human nature to be superior, better than the other group, and ergo - a group of people who believe that they are safe and others are not. If you have strictly defined lines/rules to receive salvation, it is a whole lot easier. Just 'cause Jesus came to show the spirit vs the letter of the law.... to, according to somebody I read , coin the word hypocrisy (wouldn't that be great!!!), and to show that following laws was not enough.... oh well.... Grace with conditions is not grace. Cafeteria style theology is choosing to wear mixed fabric clothes, eat cheeseburgers, work on the sabbath - but to hate homosexuality.... Leviticus.... not finding ways to God in many traditions. The hope I find is in evangelical authors like Max Lucado and John Eldridge. They fall into the political camp on the right, but seem to have genuine compassion and the intellect to have read the entire bible and understand it. They both seem to be focusing on people waking up; living vs. existing; finding God as a real presence in day to day life. I recommend them to people who are identified with the right as a way to help them move towards the middle - or at least to see what I would consider to be the important issues as a christian.

I've been wondering about all this. I have read Emmett Fox and found much of his work inspiring and beautiful... he has a New Thought, CS, Unity perspective that seems to work with quantum physics fuzzy reality ideas. It makes me very nervous to think of controlling my world with my thoughts. OTOH, I find it very true in a limited sense. I guess I just like the idea of a higher purpose than my own short-lived and irrascible mind! Agnes Sanford is a mystic/christian healer who has many of the same ideas... Unity sent me a free issue of their magazine. It struck me, for no reason that I can put my finger on, as cultish... I guess it was all the "personal attention" and group membership promises. I didn't subscribe. I don't know what I think about all this, I'd love to know what you all think! Thanks.

I think they do discuss it in the New Testament and in The Old Testament teaching co tapes Cha Ching! There isn't a list in the course guidebook, but Bart Ehrman (UNC) states that the gospels were not attributed to their named authors until the 2nd century. I know that many scholars agree that Paul did not write most of the books attributed to him (yes, they have a course on Paul too!) but, in those days, it was considered humble and ethical to write under the name of your mentor as a gesture of respect and to give credit to them for your ideas. I think that there is considerable disagreement and discussion on when each book was written and by whom it was written... good luck!

LOL - Harsh, but funny. Thanks for the link

No worries - I'm not watching TBN... some popular local pastors who are well-respected in the community and their denominations. It's just a televised church service - usually from the week before. I will admit to really enjoying TD Jakes and Creflo Dollar when cleaning up the kitchen or using the elliptical machine I'm in the South, so the most segregated hour of the week has a really different flavor here! Re all the things churches split over... I think that so totally misses the point of christianity that I can't imagine how people justify it.

great article BroRog! May we all be as aware of our own camel-swallowing techniques as we are of others'!

Re: miracles of Jesus - in historical studies (Ex. the Teaching Co. The Historical Jesus) I have read that the miracles were not unique in that time. There were other contenders for the title of messiah whose followers also believed that they were born of a virgin, healed the sick, and raised the dead. I think it was part of a culture vastly different from ours. Imagine people 2000 years from now debating what "virus" means - AIDS or computer???? In terms of believing them miracles of Jesus), I don't have a firm position... ususally I like firm answers, but more and more I don't think it matters if they happened literally or not. SOMETHING happened that caused a group of people to vastly change their lives and make a committment to follow Jesus. That something is still happening. I've tried to open my mind to see a clearer view of the conservative fundamentalist church. I've used Sunday morning TV and a variety of neighbors and acquaintences... the sermons are filled with grace, love, compassion and striving. The audience is exhorted to follow Christ, to live well, to sacrifice. I tend to hear the words of exclusion; but they hear the Great Commission. It's humbling and interesting to confront your own intolerances head on! OUCH. I think Borg has it (in so many ways) when he states that if people have literal views of the bible that work for them, let them be. Many people are happy with that, it does not cause them internal angst and conflict such as (I would guess) many of us experienced. We seem to be a group of thinkers - that has its advantages, but lots of people experience and do without the conflict that thinking invites. I'm trying to express my sense that different strengths or approaches to the world have different strengths and weaknesses but I so highly value thinking that it sounds judgemental to me! Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is this: believe in miracles if it works for you. You won't know anytime soon (God willing) whether or not you're "right"... so what... Can you imagine how God shakes his head at the things we choose to struggle with

Miracles have come up briefly in several posts - I'd love to discuss them. I, for one, think that miracles happen frequently and we do our best to explain them away. How about you all? Do they have to be big? No other explanation? Do you have to know objectively or do you just know?

I agree with what has been written - esp. using progressive, evangelical, etc. as labels to give a shorthand explanation of a general perspective. The primary characteristic of a progressive in my mind is the willingness to give other perspectives respect, compassion, and, perhaps even, a fair chance to influence or enhance your own path. I'll paraphrase something I read the other day - a path is not laid out. A path is created by walking. As a progressive, I celebrate our diversity instead of judging it... work on my plank... know that my views have changed dramatically in the past and that I could not have predicted that - therefore, it may happen again... believe that doctrine is not the primary goal... know, beyond knowing, that God is big and good and inclusive. Ultimately, I believe that we all walk this walk alone - each of us and God. It is nice to have people to walk with for a while... I enjoy that about this board. Don't fall into our cultural trap of us vs them... things that divide are of people, not God.

Jeep - the way I understand it, the politicians did it!!! :> Do people ever change??? I think that a consensus was created at the council of nicene with the initiation of the current tax breaks and special status for churches that signed on to the state sponsored religion. It had little to do with manuscript reliability or God... mostly to do with what worked for the state. Sound familiar? DCJ - curious... I haven't been able to get any of my friends to find this discussion interesting... if you don't, feel free to opt out In many "evangelical" churches/writings now, the role of satan is emphasized. He is seen to be an active force in human lives. Given that, if seems so very likely to me that he (satan) would have really put some effort into corrupting the scriptures and the focus of religions. Ex. - the passion of Jesus vs. the life/message of Jesus. Any thoughts?

The kingdom of God is spread about the earth and men do not perceive it.... how do you all read that????

Have you seen the prayer: "Lord, make me the person my dog thinks I am"... a noble goal!

Cool - a new word - communitarianism... I would have called it socialism too. Thanks for the info BroRog!

Mu, as I understand it is much more complex than no or nothing - although that is it's common use in Japan. In the ultimate East meets West, google it and you'll find a lot of interesting information. It is the answer to the question , "Does a dog have buddha nature" according to Chao Chou - in other words, if you have to ask... you've missed the point. A more American version is that mu is the answer to the question, "Have you stopped beating your wife?" take a minute.... you see? you can't answer the question unless you do or have beaten your wife... the question is based on false assumptions. Mu is the first Koan in the Gateless Barrier... people are said to have spent up to 12 years meditating on it... there's a this is that, that is this nature to it also. Very interesting. Makes for a great meditative word... but someone recently told me that it is a short u... a long u sounds a lot better in a chant!!!

Mu.

I also liked Thich Nhat Hanh's Jesus and Buddha as Brothers. The puppy is great for mindfulness. Lose track of him for a moment and lose a cord, plant, or toe!

Aletheia - I'm not as experienced as Lolly, but I recently enjoyed The Gateless Barrier edited by Robert Aitken. It is a collection of the Wu-Men Koans... sort of short parables that can "induce" enlightenment. I had a zen moment today. We just got a miniature schnauzer - he's only 9 wks old and very small. When he needs to go outside, he whines. Then when I take him outside - even if he's been intensely circling inside - he is completely overwhelmed and distracted from his needs/purpose by every leaf, stick, blow of the wind, etc. I wonder if that's how God sees us. Bumping into little twigs and fighting them fiercely while forgetting our purpose. Then back on track, only to be waylaid by a leaf. Ahhhh. A moment of enlightenment. Then I took the next breath and started over. :>