Cynthia

Hilarious article! Let's start an online 12-step program :>. Really, I would love to see more articles like this. Ridicule is strong - it can invoke the Embarrassment Factor, a powerful force for change!

BroRog - C.S. Lewis wrote a great book that it sounds like you would enjoy. The Great Divorce. It's tremendously funny and humbling. Also, I read somewhere (I think on one of these boards recently) that Hitler had a spiritual spin on what he was doing. Perhaps, like W, the abstract thought failed dramatically. Beach - John Edwards (yeh, the medium from Crossing Over) believes in a slightly different form of being separated from God, but not by the uncrossable chasm. He talks about "warmth" being close to God and levels of awareness/existence getting farther away being colder. The "deserving" are furthest away, but can continue to progress towards God if they choose. Cynthia

Thanks for the link to Jon Stewart, I had missed that. I've been sighing since all the election hype started... the more spiritual I become, the sadder our government makes me. It's popular to talk about satan's influence on the world... I don't know what I think about that whole idea, but this does seem like a good example of that! Let's keep exchanging ideas and encouraging discussion and thoughtful rather than knee-jerk theology, behavior, and ethics. For now, the sighs are a good reminder to do mindful breathing :> Cynthia There's another great link on sojo.net to Phillip Yancey. Surprising, good, hopeful.

This is meant very gently, so please take it as such. The bible, in my mind, was inspired by God and gives us many truths. It has, however, had 2000 years and countless translations by people with less than Godly intentions and motives. Reading different translations can give you a sense of this and the difference it can make. For example, if you read "fear God" literally as we think of "fear" these days, you would understand something very different from the way most people read that (perhaps as respect, place first, love with all your heart, mind and strength). I have found it very interesting to read some of the Nag Hamadi (sp?) documents, uncanonized gospels, and history of christianity. For me, it heightens my experience of and desire for a close personal connection with God, believing that that is the way to understanding. For others it is very threatening and can cause a crisis of faith. You have to take your own path. I do enjoy this board. While we all ultimately walk this path alone, it is wonderful to find like-minded people to share the journey with. Thanks all.

I agree Aletheia. I listened to NPR's Fresh Air last night with Dr. Charles Lane (I think that is his name) - the head of the SBC's political arm and Rev. Jim Wallis (Sojourners - a liberal evangelical). The points they made were very interesting. Dr. Lane was so very hostile, beligerent, and brimming with anger and hatred that it was hard to believe that people would see him as close to God. I really was listening with an open mind. I was very hopeful that his presentation would help me to understand how christians can vote republican. I was very disappointed... fruit and all, y'know. Rev. Wallis was wonderful. He discussed the politics of Jesus from (in my opinon) a much more biblical perspective than I have heard from the right. I haven't read his book yet, but it is on this topic - God's Politics: Why the Right is Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It.

The way I understood Kerry's position as well as the mainstream democratic postition was that abortion was undesirable and policies should be developed to make it a less likely option. They seem to understand that most people who have abortions do not choose it as what they want to do, they feel that it is their only or best choice in a difficult situation. (Others may see other options, but they don't at that time). Jim Wallis (a liberal evangelical christian - see sojourners.com) talks about making adoption and "pro-life" options more realistic and available. Saying that you are pro-life (not this board, but the right in general) and then cutting funding for daycare, education, health care, etc. does not make sense. Pro-life seems to end at birth for the current right. Very sad and frustrating for me too. I think we could have the best of both worlds with abortion only when medically necessary - as deemed such by the parents and doctors - but not by forcing people who are unequiped to have and raise unwanted children. Life is not a beautiful choice for the child of a crack/crystal meth addict who lives with her pimp. Ok, off the soapbox now, deep breath :> Cynthia

Amen Lolly.

Jesus was clearly known for grace, radical compassion (great term from Brennan Manning), and love for people regardless of their persuasion. I don't know about tolerance.... :> The Buddhists have a great saying about KNOWING for sure about anything spiritual: If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him. In other words, anything concrete, any expectations will get in the way of your ability to experience Buddha (or perhaps your own Buddhahood). I think that God is ultimately unknowable. We can know our experiences, others experiences, thoughts, etc.... but God is big. He doesn't fit in any box I can conceive.

Des - I would think of it in terms of the last part of your post - distance between ourselves and God and, perhaps, encouragement to focus on our planks rather than - as seems to be human nature - on what other people are doing that is worse. A reminder that you can't just say, "ok, check off spirituality - I haven't murdered anyone. On to the next thing on the list". I currently think (sometimes subject to change! :>) that mindfulness of thoughts, actions - especially small ones, being consistent is what is important. I would agree with the others, it's about the internal state. I read an interesting idea that the laws and rules associated with religion are the way people attempt to make an internal change visible - proof if you will. BTW - did you enjoy the news media's startle when Bush left church after a "much shorter than usual" service. I heard someone on Today say "Well, this President always does things fast". A good laugh and example of inconsistency.

The DaVinci Code is great fiction - the benefit seems to be the idea that PEOPLE had a lot to do with how the bible was translated, which books were canonized, and which creeds were accepted. I think this leaves us more open to ideas, less dogmatic, and, perhaps, more comfortable with knowing we don't know.

I read it as the equalization of "sin". People tend to see themselves as better than or not as bad as others. Like much of that section (ex. beautitudes), it flies in the face of the way people tend to think. I think it's in Matthew 6 - Sermon on the Mount - Jimmy Carter is pretty funny about that issue in one of his books - when he confessed to "lusting in his heart" all the conservative preachers contacted by the press denied that they EVER did that.

I listened to Early Christianities - - really enjoyed it! Hope you do too.

For what it's worth, I was following the thread with interest. I didn't have anything that seemed worth adding, but I appreciate and benefited from the ideas expressed. Sometimes people aren't stonewalling in reaction to a deep understanding/experience of God - - - sometimes it's awe or taking time to understand and appreciate. Sorry you felt stonewalled ...

Teach12... I LOVE the Teaching Company! Lots of great religion/history/etc. classes! They make monotonous chores, painting rooms, driving long distances all much more enjoyable. Which classes did you buy?

To Seeking - welcome to the progressives in the South club... there are more of us than you will realize for a while - even in churches where the pulpit is much more conservative. Take heart. A couple of ideas that made a difference to me: Grace with conditions (even belief) is not grace; it is earned. Most conservatives will tell you that Jesus came to replace the law with grace, and then tell you about the laws to obtain grace - - - stick with the first part. Consider the difference (if you can find any) between the God-loving, well-intentioned, fearful pharises and the conservatives/fundamentalists you know. Much of the difference between fundamentalism and progressives is based on fear - if the answers are clear then I don't have to deal with the angst of figuring it out. Just belong to the right group. I don't think that people purposefully take that way out, you just hear it over and over and never think your way out of your comfort zone. Then, gather information, read, question.... and along the way, most importantly, do what you have been taught - pray for comfort, pray for guidance, make a decision based on your experience of God. He'll talk to your gut. Marcus Borg makes a good point - don't condemn the fundamentalists either... make your own peace with God. We all walk this walk alone in the end anyway. Godspeed!

Great book - I heard Borg speak just after I read it and the defining idea that I came away with was that you can be a passionate christian without needing to take away from or denigrate any other faith. Somehow, for me, that took away my perceived hyprocrisy of going to church, believing, but not believing exclusively.