Cynthia

"...excepting the bull..." kinda like, except for That, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

I think that there is middle ground... perhaps not a predestined plan, but the idea that God can see the world across time (from outside time) and therefore knows what will happen and can intervene (???) as He chooses with those who are open to Him without taking away free will and without planning for the horiffic.

Beautiful thoughts Lily, thanks... Just as I started seeing F - the president bumper stickers; I went to church today and they had J- the Christ T-shirts....

Ditto to WindDancer!!

I've just ordered this (overstock.com has it for $14 + $1 shipping). Anybody interested in starting a read/discussion all at once? It might be more satisfying than the Borg thread!

Here's a quote from the pdf file - thanks, it's great. It reminded me of our discussions! Scandalously, the generous orthodoxy you will explore (if you proceed) goes too far, many will say, in the direction of identifying orthodoxy with a consistent practice of humility, charity, courage, and diligence: humility that allows us to admit that our past and current formulations may have been limited or distorted. Charity toward those of other traditions who may understand some things better than our group—even though we are more conscious of what we think we understand better. Courage to be faithful to the true path of our faith as we understand it even when it is unpopular, dangerous, and difficult to do so. Diligence to seek again and again the true path of our faith whenever we feel we have lost our way, which seems to be pretty often. While I see this practice as a way of seeking and cherishing truth, some will interpret this approach as an abandonment of truth, doctrine, theology, etc. You are free to be among them. To link orthodoxy with a practice, as the previous paragraph does, further makes this book seem ridiculous because many orthodoxies have always and everywhere assumed that orthodoxy (right thinking and opinion about the gospel) and orthopraxy (right practice of the gospel) could and should be separated, so that one could at least be proud of getting an A in orthodoxy even when one earned a D in orthopraxy, which is only an elective class anyway. In fact, one could even get into a good graduate school based on high orthodoxy grades alone.

Today the planet is the only proper "in group." Participate joyfully in the sorrows of the world. We cannot cure the world of sorrows, but we can choose to live in joy. Â Joseph Campbell

I just looked up McLaren on amazon... I haven't read him yet, but this book title sounds like us (ok, maybe not the specific words, but the listing!!!) . A Generous Orthodoxy: Why I Am a Missional, Evangelical, Post/Protestant, Liberal/Conservative, Mystical/Poetic, Biblical, Charismatic/Contemplative, Fundamentalist/Calvinist, Anabaptist/Anglican, Methodist, Catholic, Green, Incarnational, Depressed-yet-Hopeful, Emergent, Unfinished CHRISTIAN -- by Brian D. McLaren; Hardcover

Aristotle made the point better than I did: For as bats' eyes are to daylight so is our intellectual eye to those truths which are, in their own nature, the most obvious of all. Aristotle, Metaphysics, I. As for so few people talking about theology... remember that very few people identify themselves as "not smart", or people who don't think thngs through. Even W has a theology that he apparently feels is in line with God's will. There are many truely religious people who agree with him and the line of theologians behind him.... I can't see it, myself. That does not make it wrong, no matter how obviously wrong I may find it. In the deep south, most people know quite a bit of scripture. Many participate regularly in bible studes. Many come to a literal approach to the Bible. It's still theology. As for sharing experiences of God, that is wonderful. I find myself reticent to do this and others' on this board seem the same given some previous threads. I'm not sure why... seems very personal and impossible to put into words.

Interesting discussion folks. I think the Muslims have it... in morning prayers they say, Only God is God. To me (yeh, I know ), that means God = The More = The Mystery = Dharma = Tao = Allah = Christ = infinity. As for the type of relationship, ahhhhh... that's not the stuff of theology, that's the stuff of experience. "The love that surpasses knowledge" I think it is interesting to talk/write about theology and it has the potential to deepen our spirituality... BUT, it is also easier to do than praying/meditating/experiencing God. The key factor for me is remembering that people (ie religion) will always have shortcomings. The more time and energy you spend choosing a path that exactly fits you (impossible IMHO), the less time you have to practice on relationship building. Screwtape Letters lists this sort of focus as a primary tactic of personal temptors . God is big; God is not petty; (People are small; people are petty ) I agree with Borg that choosing a path does not exclude you from the wisdom of other paths; Mythology, Christian or otherwise, is so deeply true that "historical fact" is irrelevant. Nobody has all the answers - except God. Ask Him.... breathe in.... breathe out.... relax..... wait..... ahhhh..... love..... quiet.... peace. Peace to you all. Cynthia

MEASURING PRAYER Could you just repeat what you said a few minutes ago? someone asked. You said that feelings aren't the barometer of spiritual experience, and then I think you said that the spiritual life doen't need a barometer. No, it doesn't. Nothing in the spiritual life needs to be measured. You don't need to worry about whether your'e praying as well as somebody else is, even somebody whose spiritual life you admire. We are not called to grow into someone else's spirtual clothing: only into our own. Measuring and evaluating your prayer is too much like what happens in school to be spiritually healthy. In school, you get a grade. You try to get a better grade. You hope you get a better grade than your seatmate, because you are competing with him. Your focus is on yourself, and it is a competitive focus. But in prayer, the focus needs to be wider: it is on you, but it is also on those you love, on the world, on the mysetery of God. I can't think of a single way to measure that, or a single good reason for doing so. And you don't need to fuss yourself about whether you are as devout as you used to be -- human beings are changeable cratures, and the spiritual life is a human enterprise: it has eras, and it will change from era to era. Something that has fed you for years may cease to do so, and that need not mean you're wandering away from God. It probably just means you're changing eras. Don't be surprised or alarmed; it will probably be back. JUst do something else for a while -- evening prayerinstead of morning, journalling instead of either, centering prayer upon awakening. Something new to you. It may be that the new practice will be even better than the old. It may have been time to let the old one go. Just ask God for the gift of prayer that God wants you to have. Do this especially is you're a smart liberal person who feels a little embarrassed anthropomorphizing God and asking him for things. Don't be embarrassed: you don't create God in yor own image by imagining God; you're just using the tools that human beings have for coming closer to God. You are speaking the language of prayer, of image, of poetry, not the language of journalistic fact. You are right to assert that God is beyond image, beyond body, beyond all that is here. But we're here. The threshold of prayer is low enough so that all of us can take the first step. So ask, and don't criticize yourself. Because if we knew how much God loves us, we would be very different people. And the world would be a very different place. Copyright © 2005 Barbara Crafton - http://www.geraniumfarm.org

Required reading??? Didn't know we were here for credit... esp. via the catholic church and its social policy.... not exactly progressive. BTW, James, I have a great friend who is catholic and uses the method you describe. It involves checking mucus throughout the month to estimate ovulation, etc. She has 3 lovely children. Was strongly advised not to have # 2 or 3 due to serious, life-threatening complications... not such good results... per contraception. (The kids are fabulous). Back to my drum... radical compassion. Curlytop's friend sounds like s/o Jesus would hang with....

If we're going to look at "can't go wrong" prayers... How about the Lord's Prayer? I love the idea that praying opens you to God; praying the Lord's Prayer basically signals your openness to God's plan while opening yourself to his influence. Contemplative prayer is also wonderful. Like meditation, I think of it as listening to God... rather than talking. CS Lewis (just watched Shadowlands), says that he felt a constant need/longing to pray... that it changed him, not God. There is a lot of medical and other research on prayer lately... it is well designed and better controlled than most medical studies. The results are stunning. There is a book (sorry, don't have it around for a full reference) called Mind/Body Health that sums up a lot of the research. People have "unexplained" results if they are prayed for - greater than control groups - with statistical and clinical significance - even if they don't know they are being prayed for... very faith affirming stuff. We (people) like dichotomy... yes or no, true or false.... God has more options than we.....

I miss the "go to last unread post" - any chance of getting that back??

Glad you liked it! I got to hear him speak Sunday night as part of the series. That one was very political and doesn't seem to be on the web- - - just war; history of Christians and war, etc. I didn't realize that for the first 300 yrs AD, Christians were exempted from military service as being a soldier was seen as completely incompatible with their beliefs. Later, after Constantine, and as christian countries developed, christian majorities felt torn between defense of country and tweeked their belief system. Then the Crusader mentality. Then Augustine and Just War... Borg sees preemptive war as morally wrong. He asked the audience to seriously consider the moral status of ourselves as a country. He hopes that there will be no repetition. The Monday sermon about two processions was mild and concillatory in comparison. Borg was, as always, eloquent and christlike. His faith shines through his speech and presence much more than through his writing (Heart of Christianity excepted). If you have a chance to see him, it is well worth it.

No intention to slight the debate - I've enjoyed reading it! Just trying to be funny... Serendipity led me to the sermon that seemed to be Borg's contribution to the debate. He is so much more eloquent than I.

Back to your corners I just listened to a great sermon by Marcus Borg (given Monday) that addresses the Pax Romana vs. Pax Christi. It is here: http://www.calvaryjc.org/sermons2.html This gives a schedule of lenten luncheon sermons; Find Marcus Borg, and click audio under the Monday sermon. It's about 20 min and plays in realplayer. The benediction he gives at the end is worth sharing: Life is short and we do not have much time to gladden the hearts of those who travel the way with us. So, make be swift to love and make haste to be kind and the blessings of God, Creator Christ, and ever present Spirit be with you this day and always. Go in Peace. Amen.

No intrusion! Welcome! If you want to send a "personal message" to someone, just click on their name and then click on send a personal message. Looking forward to hearing from you on the boards! Cynthia

nice site. A similar, year-round one is: www.catholicireland.org They have adult and children't versions that change daily as well as lots of links.

an example of Radical Compassion

I totally agree BroRog. Since you mentioned Leviticus... you've got to check out www.GodHatesShrimp.com Hilarious.

You don't mention age... Max Lucado's are good for little kids. Thich Nhat Hanh has 3 or so out also Buddist specifically on 1-2 pages - good, big God mostly. Really for the under 8 crowd unless they just like read aloud books. Bigger concepts, good presentation - but "babyish" :> The chicken Soup for the PreTeen Soul and Teenagers Soul are a big hit. Spirituality, God's influence... not a lot of theology. The Left Behind for Kids, when presented as Science fiction are pretty exciting. Way scary if taken literally!!!! Narnia is awesome, but beyond Aslan = Jesus, they probably won't notice much. He wrote it as a way to incorporate the myth into childhood consciousness. Happy Reading!

Joseph Campbell, Huston Smith, William Teasdale and many others call this "Perennial" or "Primordial", although if you look up those words, the definitions won't quite fit. Thomas Moore (the quote at the bottom of my posts) is interesting to read. Some of his stuff, like "Care of the Soul" is like Campbell's stuff; Have you ever SEEN the interview? The imagery is quite astounding and watching Campbells humor it a trip. Ok, I think I've quoted... we'll see I think the best term for finding the same idea in different places is concurrent validity. Thomas Moore, in Care of the Soul, seems more Jungian than "Campbellian" to me. M. Scott Peck, although more identifiable as christian, strikes me as carrying on some of Campbell's ideas... I haven't seen the interview - I'll look for it - thanks!

I have a hard time reading Campbell, but listening to him is wonderful. There are several series of tapes in which he reads his works or, in The Power of Myth, has an interview with Bill Moyers. His voice, presence, and tone are wonderful. He's very comfortable, very sure, and very gentle. Our library has several... well woth the time. I think his ideas of the More are bigger than any one system of belief. His gift and passion was to see the interrelatedness (is that a word??? ) and the deeper truths in mythological frameworks across time and culture. In my mind, if you find the same truths in unrelated sources across time and culture, you're onto something. I find him to be faith affirming although he seemed clearly unidentified with any religion as I listened to him speak. I think he would have liked Borg. The idea that you can be passionate about your God without denigrating anybody else's idea of God; the idea that spirituality is about living your faith and about personal experience with God, not about specific beliefs... Ok, now I want to pull out the Power of Myth CDs again... I've listened to the set twice and heard completely new things the second time.... I'm sure there's more!

Here Here Lolly!!! I frequently find myself (usually fruitlessly) trying to explain to people who distain christianity that IF people acted on the Gospels their concerns/problems with christianity would disappear. WWJD? Radical compassion. Not petty, divisive bickering. sigh.