Cynthia

no offense taken -- just grumpy today

You heard (read?) me right Fred... I don't think it matters. The concept matters but the historical "truth" doesn't - to me. I think people waste a lot of time, energy and effort arguing about things that cannot be resolved and that, really, don't matter. Is Jesus alive to me - yes. Can I prove it? No. But I Know. People who know me can judge on fruit if they so choose. Trying to make rules to prove acceptance of God, to objectively and externally prove an internal change is, IMO, where all the problems with religion started. To me, the 8 points and progressive christianity mean that I can respect and value your beliefs without you having to prove their value to me. I don't think that Jesus was just a good role model. Anyway, hope that clarifies...

Darby - I don't think it is.... let me try to explain.... Whether or not Jesus was bodily raised from the dead... He calls me to radical compassion... NOW. My primary concern is not with my personal "salvation" nor with my personal afterlife. It is with being close to God/in sync with God/on God's side/the body of Christ now. If you look at resurrection metaphorically, I see lots of "dead" people walking around... by accepting/acknowledging/getting close to God/Jesus, I feel that I am awake or, perhaps, resurrected. As for a literal afterlife and salvation...that's another thread.... I'm not sure what I think/believe there.... either way, lots to do now. Does that make any sense to you? Anybody?

very progressive article... don't y'think? "It just shows you that when you study something as cryptic and mystic as the Book of Revelation there's an almost unlimited number of interpretations." As far as reminds me of... Monk goes to ancient monastary... copying documents from copies.... where are the originals? We've always done it this way say the leaders.... then an old monk is convinced to visit the vault with the originals.... no one has been there for hundreds of years - to protect t he original documents. He doesn't come back... later found crying... we forgot the "r"... we forgot the "r". :> OR All the jokes about the veracity of the translation of 72 virgins waiting in heaven for Muslim martyrs.... I hope the finding gets some press!

lucid - - - ok, so a time machine would be a lot of fun! Can you imagine how disconcerting it would be to see what really happened? Talk about a game of "telephone" gone wild.... I haven't read Jim Marion, but that sounds like new thought/unity/christian science theology.... it tends to strike me wrong too, but I think that I tend to take it too literally. (funny, given... ) I imagine that It can also be read metaphorically, but I would need help. That's where the 8 points and progressive christianity appeal to me... I am not "called" to judge anybody's faith but my own. Except in deciding whom to follow. I can imagine that many sincere, godly people will find a time where new thought is appealing to them and brings them closer to God. We can agree on the "sum of the law" - love your God with all your heart.... and love your neighbor as yourself. Unlike people who interpret literally, I am free to, as I paraphrase Marcus Borg, to fully commit to my path without having to put down anyone elses'. enjoying the discussion -

when I say it doesn't matter, I mean that I think getting caught up in whether or not the bible is literally true causes people to miss the whole point. The point of Exodus is not that the Red Sea parted for 5 min and 31 sec at a max. width of 31.7 meters and a minimum width of..... have fun in the time machine, but I honestly couldn't care less. If the bible were literally true (and I know you're not arguing this ), then it wouldn't contradict itself... as it often does... I think that the miracles described express the writer's (and/or their cohorts) experience of God. They were trying to make a point. Did it "really" happen? I don't think it's lazy to say, "I don't know"... I don't know exactly how heat causes egg protein to string together.... I make pretty good scrambled eggs.... enough pertinent information - I don't need the biochem to benefit. Anyway, I may not be expressing this well, but I agree with you that if you must have literal truth you will be nervous if a test is devised. I don't think you'll find many people here who take the bible literally. Myth/Metaphor is true... more true, over time, than "fact". Joseph Campbell explains this well - there is an old thread that you may enjoy.... As for natural laws changing for the "favored"... I wish everyone would spend more time worrying about being on God's side rather than fighting about whose God is bigger or which side "He" is on. Peace -

Fabulous Armadillo!

I agree that it does not matter whether or not they actually happened. My understanding of story telling in biblical times involves a different standard of truth than we purport to have today. Saying that the Red Sea parted today would be something to prove - video, witnesses, etc. I think that then it could have been used to make a point, to clarify what the author was trying to get across (perhaps - only God could do that, God was clearly on our side). People, I think, understood that as part of story telling. This explains some of the differences in the gospels... many bible commentaries will reference the audience for which each gospel was primarily written to explain the stories told, the references made, etc. Sorry for the poor explaination... Marcus Borg is much better than I at expressing this. Try The Heart of Christianity - you may find clear answers in the first chapter!!! Welcome to the board, by the way!

Perhaps some nice combat boots for mowing??? So sorry! Hope you can put your foot up on a nice stack of pillows, and sit in a sunny spot with books about grace, a cup of tea, and lots of bon-bons

Lily - I just read about the "stop" as the discipline of silence - basically only speaking (eh... writing) when you actually feel moved by the Holy Spirit to do so. I'm impressed! I am working up to that discipline. God is helping me... everytime I try to talk and explain something that has been misunderstood (in the real world) I am soundly punished .... two ears, one mouth.... I'm starting to catch on! Aletheia - I think you're funny, interesting, thoughtful and ALWAYS well-intentioned in your posts. Happy painting!

LMAO Aletheia!!!! a pulpit, I think, is a way to refer to whereever the "preacher" stands. (althought sometimes the word is used to mean the individual church leadership. ) In some churches this is a formal area where unordained people may not speak. In others it is less sanctified. A lecturn is the squarish thing on a pedestal, often wood with a flat top, slightly slanted toward the speaker (to put notes or a book on). You've seen them in classrooms, lectures, etc. Kinda like a music stand, but sturdier. Again, the word is often used to refer to whatever thing, waist-ish high that the speaker stands behind... used to hold notes, or, as des noted, to keep from falling over from fear.

Welcome

Des - you're in my prayers too. It often SEEMS like the most loving thing to care for a parent at home, but the reality is she will likely get better socialization, routine, and care at a good nursing home. Perhaps, as she stops recognizing people as much, you could move her closer to you.... just remember that is for you, not her. It sounds like she is well cared for, and fine.... guilt is just part of the equation... it's separate from actually being able to do something better. sometimes there is no good solution - all options are, at heart, unacceptable. Thomas Moore wrote: Pray - period! Don't expect anything. Or better, expect nothing. Prayer cleanses us of expectations and allows holy will, providence, and life itself an entry. What could be more worth the effort -- or the noneffort? And, most importantly... remember - God loves her even more than you do.

Robert E. Lee O Almighty and Everlasting God, Creator of Heaven, Earth and the Universe, help me to be, to think, to act what is right, because it is right. Make me truthful, honest, and honorable in all things; make me intellectually honest for the sake of right and honor and without thought of reward to me. Give me the ability to be charitable, forgiving and patient with my fellow men. Help me to understand their motives and their shortcomings, even as thou understandest mine! Amen. Wow - that's a tall order

Mother Teresa had this to say: Be the loving expression of God's kindness; kindness in your eyes, kindness in your face, kindness in your smile, kindness in your warm greetings. We are all but His instruments who do our little bit and pass by, I believe that the way in which an act of kindness is done is as important as the action itself. in The Joy in Loving: Mother Teresa Aletheia - Phillip Yancey made it possible for me to go to church. It's been a good thing.... something I never thought I would do.

Exactly Earl!!! I think people get in trouble when they try to objectively varify an internal change. Look for fruit... worry about your mote - not so much about what everybody else is doing/believing/etc. Ahhh, community! I love these talks.

Amen sistah!

Changing back to mystical experiences... thought you all would like this: RETURN TO THE GARDEN We have been away from home for a couple of days. All the way home, from airport to bus to subway to train to taxi, I have been thinking about little but the garden. The lupine seeds: up yet? The adenaphora confusa: too big to transplant? The tulips: how many, and did the new ones bloom? The transplanted roses: over their shock? Was there enough rain? It is hard to leave the garden in the spring -- so much is going on. The taxi pulls up and we get out. One glance and my heart leaps: it is even more beautiful than it was when we left. Glorious daffodils and more tulips, purple, white, deep pink. The redbud tree is blooming, and the forsythias send their graceful branches toward the sky. And less obvious beauties have continued in our absence: the lavender plants all have new leaves. The little cotyledons of the lupines are, indeed, green against the dirt. There is a nice blue bell-shaped clustering flower whose name I don't know: I must have planted her last year and forgotten -- the lighter side of memory loss. You start a garden, but God takes it from there. You care for it the best you can, but it is already endowed with its own powerful vector of life and fecundity: beauty comes naturally to every citizen of it. But maybe even God longs to check on it: He was walking in the Garden of Eden the morning after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. Maybe God hungers to see how things are doing, just as we do. And maybe the heart of God leaps at the beauty of it all. Copyright © 2005 Barbara Crafton - http://www.geraniumfarm.org

Nice quote! Have you read Emmett Fox? He is an old (1930's?) New Thought advocate... pivotal, apparently to AA.... I don't know about CS, Unity, or current New Thought. His book on the Sermon on the Mount rings with timeless truth.

Thanks for all the great responses and the new thread! I think I tend to "get" buddhism best when trying to be tolerant of intolerance. The koan of being intolerant of intolerance is a turning word! Something alone the lines of: You are intolerant. I am intolerant. We are the same (gasp! Back to Pogo) I don't want to be the same as you! Now we're more the same - ack! and around and around it goes until I feel quite connected... this is that. Make sense to anybody???

Lutherans, Episcopalians, Catholics and Methodists perform infant baptism. Do Presbyterians? Catholics, Lutherans and Episcopalians have Communion at each service. Methodists and Presbyterians once a month. Lutherans have 2 sacraments. Catholics have 7 sacraments. What about Episcopalians, Methodists and Presbyterians? Any at all? Lutherans, Episcopalians and Methodists ordain women. Do Presbyterians or Orthodox? Catholics and Episcopalians have a "top down" organizational structure. Prebyterians are congregationalist. What about Lutherans, Methodists or Orthodox? Is the UCC Methodist? I know Evangelical Christians are into endtimes stuff and have different views on the tribulation and rapture, etc. Catholics seem to be concerned with the "end of days" stuff too. Are the other traditional groups focused on this aspect of theology as well? I'm asking out of basic curiousity of doctrinal or traditional differences (like the creeds) between these groups. Thought it might be a fun thread. This is not born out of an "us versus them" attitude that I have. I'm just learning. Lots of good answers, but a few points I'd like to add Many denominations have evangelical branches... this does not mean the above, but means that they take The Great Commission (to spread the Good News) as the primary duty of the church. Good works, etc are fruit of the faith, but are secondary to spreading the good news. The media has redefined evangelical.... don't buy in!!! It is interesting from an intellectual standpoint. If you're looking for a church, however, I'd say that 80-90 %of the people in the pews don't know the doctrine of their denomination.... find one that feeds you; that you feel good about supporting. The name on the door, when it comes down to it, doesn't mean much in terms of consistency, beliefs, works, etc. We all love the same Jesus .

Curly - thanks for the article. I think we tend to forget that we don't believe the media when they confirm our own fears . That seems to happen all over the political spectrum - the media is right/accurate/believable when they agree with us or confirm our fears (no matter who "we" are) and they are biased/inaccurate/untrustworthy when we don't agree. Quite a bind . Beach - Oh girl... . I too am tolerant of anything but intolerance. Which puts me in the intolerant camp with the people I am intolerant of and drives away the tolerant people because I, in the cause of tolerance, am quite intolerant... BUT, being tolerant of intolerance seems wrong... it's a conundrum. I personally would appreciate knowing what others here do with this!!!!

James said: My point, was that his writings are authoratative for Catholics. This means that Catholics cannot take a contrary position while remaining faithful Catholics. Anyone else can do as they please, but the issue has been settled in the Church. Not attacking - curious - What does this mean for American Catholics? I have many friends who are catholic - quite loyally catholic... but they seem to have little regard for the church's position on social and personal issues... and really don't seem at all bothered by this. [plenty of protestants in this cultural christian camp as well ] I find it somewhat confusing. Is this an American phenomena? Would you define them as heretics? Fallen? Where are those lines? How does the gospel concepts of pharases (to me, very sincere religious people who got caught up in the rules vs. grace and missed) apply? Thanks!

SmithKlineBeechum was advertising Paxil (antidepressant) as a God pill - briefly. I only saw the ad once before they pulled it... something along the lines of "never be alone again"... very sad statement. Strikes me a lot like the movies Lost in Translation and Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind - empty, meaningless, existence.... it seems to be rampant in our "christian country"

Panta - I added some new coy yesterday! If we open our bedroom window we can hear the waterfall... it is fabulous! I'm pretty sure these ants can read. They're not interested in food and they're immune to poison.... uberants! My tomatoes are blooming