Cynthia

So Des, any updates? How's it going?

I have several, love him. I'd be interested in re-reading one if anybody's interested in discussing. It's been a couple of years... I'm sure I would find new and striking truths and much peace. He's fabulous. Any particular book anybody?

"So let's go change the wind, people!" fwwwww, fwwwww, fwwwww - /blowing to the left/ ok, all together now!!!!

"Whenever two parties freely enter into a transaction, they both profit. " Very true. Freely being the key word. It's kind of like beads for land.

LOL Dillo - thanks for the great imagery

Spiral Staircase was great.... she's much less angry than in her earlier books, so it seemed much more thoughtful. I like Anne Lamott too!

"Likewise, I don’t mind if people want to become wealthy. There is nothing wrong with that, but it can’t be at the expense of all others." Is this possible? To become wealthy without it being at the expense of someone... best I can tell, this world economy is a zero sum game. "If liberals really want to have a world or at least nation that is open to others and able to help all, we need to get the government out of it. And if conservatives, who wish that each person would be able to expand his or her horizons through independence and liberation, want this to happen they will have to return to their old ties of less government and more liberty. Give it a few years... (truely, no disrespect intended)... things get murkier as you realize that nothing is about what it is stated to be about. Human nature and people's apparent inability to put others first on a large and/or consistent scale generally messes up the best ideologies. I would love to see the government get out of a lot of things... unfortunately, they tend to pick the "least of these" type issues... the ones there is no economic incentive for any wealthy christians (or other) to pick up. Health care, for instance. This is an area where in a wealthy country the government should be responsible, IMO, for the medically needy. Especially as they are now in the business of disallowing people to have choices (ie euthansia, choice in death, abortion) [i'm not saying that I support these] then refusing to help people left without choices. Is life a beautiful choice? If you're middle class and just not planning another child, absolutely. In many other circumstances, not so much... especially for the baby growing up malnurished in a meth lab... etc. A responsible solution, which Jim Wallis called for this week in Sojo mail, involves adoption reform, medical care, daycare, and support of families. So, what I'm trying to say is that while ideological answers are easy, real world solutions are not. Hence the quandary.

Hilarious Des! Sometimes you've just got to go with the (MOOOOO) flow... eat mor C'ken :> The parental side is fun too. Lots of repetitive info, year after year, form after form. It's hard to write it all down 10 times knowing that they will be spending scarce money to have someone key in EACH FORM SEPARATELY!!!!! Perhaps my grandkids will just go to terminals to register.... or the chips implanted at birth for national security will register them automatically as they walk into the school. It'll decrease skipping... obviously worth it Good luck with the job!!! You'll be teriffic!

Soma - I checked out that website when you posted it recently... is it a Unity book? Looks interesting! I, for Aletheia and myself (if I may impose), recommend Brian McLaren's "A Generous Orthodoxy". It's beautiful and hopeful. CS Lewis's "The Great Divorce" is interesting and hilarious - relates to the salvations thoughts on the other thread.

Great thoughts everybody! I'm in the deep South where the once saved always saved or "I'm in the book" idea is common. I agree, Comrade, the people who insist upon this often seem to bear little fruit. (I also agree that I have no right to judge anyone's relationship with God.... but judgement is one of my favorite sins ) I like McLaren's concept... thanks for the reminder about the tree - that current ideas of salvation are selfish - how do I get to heaven??? Ok, done. He talks about salvation much like this thread has - as a gift that goes through you to the people around you. Personally, my experience is that this is ongoing. Sometimes I seem to block the flow and need some spiritual draino . Today promises to hold great potential for blocked flow leading to sarcasm (not so much the funny kind), judgement, and lack of grace. My goal today is to be a fully functioning pipeline of God's grace and love. aaacccckkk. Off to meditate!!!

I thought this might be a good starting point for a discussion about what it means to be "saved" in popular parlance, or what it means to follow Jesus. Barbara Crafton wrote the following: What Paul Would Give Up For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my own people, my kindred according to the flesh. Romans 9:2 People seldom preach on this verse. It is a far cry from the every-man-for-himself approach to faith that typifies American Christian thought and behavior, so let's be clear about what Paul is saying: He would give up his own salvation for the salvation of his fellow Jews. Paul's faith isn't about him and his Jesus and the heck with everyone else. It isn't even about talking other people into a faith that's about them and their Jesus. It is something else entirely. It is about oneness before our creator and our redeemer. It is about the blossoming of an ancient tradition, and the blossom isn't the same as the root or the stem -- it can be expected to look different. A powerful conversion experience is not an end -- it is a beginning. It inaugurates a life lived in expectation of God's continuing action, which includes God's capacity and freedom to bring ancient things to flower in blossoms that look different from their roots. A powerful conversion experience like Paul had does not substitute spiritual self-absorption for material selfishness: it introduces us, rather, to a life lived without anxiety about what we will wear or what we will eat or how many cars we will have. Our life in Christ is no longer our own. More than anything else, conversion introduces us into a community whose hallmark is its diversity -- Christ goes everywhere, touches everyone, lives in every culture, is not dependent on cultural certification for any of his power to enter human lives and change them. Any thoughts???

Hey Aletheia - I know several people who have taken topamax. One or two have had to stop because of side effects, but it was personal tolerance, not serious medical conditions . Others have lost weight - truely with no effort. I agree that that is not an appropriate primary use of the drug!!! It seems that if you use this as an opportunity to get healthier and get rid of the migraines it could be a good thing. Good luck and God bless. Let us know how it goes.

Congratulations!!!

No umbrage needed - I think my intentionally inflamatory paraphrase is actually Karl Marx... but, scripturally my reference is Acts 2:43-47 (New Interpreters Study Bible) "Awe came upon everyone, because many wonders and signs were being done by the apostles. All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need. Day by day, as they spent much time together in the temple, they broke bread at home and ate their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having the goodwill of all the people. And day by day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved." Maybe we need more Awe. "I agree that our culture is not conducive to what a really Christian community would be, but that does not mean that we can’t work toward what one should be." Of course... I'm (hopefully) temporarily a bit hopeless about the whole thing... I didn't mean that it wasn't worth doing!! "We should take care of others as we take care of ourselves. I take care of my family and myself, and my family in return takes care of me, in almost the same ways. But it can’t stop there; I should work to take care of those who are not able to care for themselves, or who have been driven down and are now unable to care for themselves. I don’t begin to understand how to accomplish this, but that is not the point, yet. Agreed! At this point it isn't deciding what to do, but finding some common ground, goals, and energy for those who are willing.

"But are attacks (suicide or otherwise) against unarmed citizens, usually on foreign soil (ie Italy, USA, England) an appropriate way to send a message of "We don't like you"?" Clearly not. And, more importantly, since often done in God's name, inconsistent with Islam, Christianity, and judaism. "Are these attacks really about that? Or are they merely about power, wrapped up nicely in a little "religious and cultural differences" package?" I don't know. Haven't heard much explanation from the suicide bombers of any bent . It does seem like an apt description of most of the "legitimate" governments' reactions. As for Christian and secular culture being an "insult", the class I mentioned before indicates that it is vastly more threatening than that. Perhaps more akin to the reaction many conservative fundamentalists here (US) have to Harry Potter, public schools, etc., but with a real threat. A twist on "in the world but not of it", I think. The other thing is.... as uncomfortable as it is to acknowledge.... there is not a lot about our culture that (I think) Jesus would recognize as Christian.

"There is no way whatsoever that 9-11 or the bombings in London can be construed as "freedom-fighter" acts" I'm not sure what I think... honestly. The Teaching Co. class, Great World Religions: Beliefs, Practices and Histories (Version I - put out during the first Gulf War) by John Swanson - American University at Cairo - might disagree. He discussed (again - in 1991) the cultural assault that many Islamic countries feel that the United States (often primarily through corporations) has subjected them to. Calling their culture (based on being pleasing to God) backwards and outdated while insisting that they adopt ours (based on...?!?!) has raised a few backs. I think he could have predicted some type of extreme terror attacks against the Western cultures... justified???? Perhaps more than the current war. . I think that the issue may have something to do with what people acting actually believe and their intentions. Determining that for anyone past your own nose is a trick. I'll be interested to read others' opinions!

I think Christianity is clear: Love your neighbor as yourself. My personal freedom and individual responsibility, mixed with my Christianity, requires me to help the least of these... I don't read anything from Christianity that says - "If they Really tried" or, "if they didn't screw up" or, " if they have a good reason"... That, in my mind is the radical compassion of Jesus the Christ... take care of others - all others - as you would yourself... very incompatible with our culture; and something I don't begin to live up to. But, if we're talking about Christian Government... I think from each as they are able; to each as they need is about as close as we'd get. Adding in human nature causes problems. As for the role of government and what I'd like to see in the real world... I'm in way to hopeless a mood to address that just now. Good question! Looking forward to some new discussions!!!

LOL - Hey, where are we going???? And why are we in this handbasket (aka bandwagon)?!?!?!?!

Kids are great at helping me see the realities of theology... the debates and thoughts are interesting... but God is so very easy for them.... so real, so good, so safe, so approachable... I'm left in awe!

All I can think is, "buh-bye"

You're welcome here - recent threads aside, we're a pretty friendly bunch with a mostly similar bent. You'd probably also find helpful info on Soujourners.com and Beliefnet.com and SpiritualityHealth.com. Welcome!!

Congratulations!!!!!

LMAO kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out!

Well, except for the immediately preceeding post, this has gotten much more interesting! I agree Aletheia - the hard to pin down people appeal to me because, I think, I am in the same boat. If it were all black and white or easy, it wouldn't be interesting! That's one of the reasons I like the dialogue here - in a (usually ) respectful and constructive way - we get to share ideas, thoughts, and conundrums (sp?) about all of The More, the Mystery, the unknowable. Great fun!! Given that, imho, none of us can ever fully KNOW, this type of discussion will always help us to grow. As CS Lewis says, when you start to say "leave well enough alone" you have ceased to grow and are no longer of use to God. Fred - I always enjoy your ultra-conservative, fundamentalist, right-wing, facist posts.... How's the baby???

LOL Peace! It's summertime... perhaps Fall will bring back the intense intellectual bent of this group.