Cynthia

Thanks Jasn! These look like excellent books! Have you spent much time on the website? It looks like something teens could really get into. Any opinions on how the conversations tend to go would be helpful Just ordered both books - - - I love 1-click! (my bank account on the other hand.... )

I'd vote government!

Thanks! Great resources!! BTW, the Judy Blume book I remember passing around in Jr. High was "Wifey" Yeesh!!!! /off to research!

Ok everybody - I need some ideas for a coming of age thing for a girl turning 13. We're planning on the purity ring (she wants one) and perhaps a trip through our church to help in rebuilding on the coast. I've looked at some program type things, but they tend to be too traditional for me. I'd like to add something ongoing - (maybe a daily scripture??) that I could participate in or support. She is a big reader - loves Mitch Album (Tues with Morrie & 5 People You Meet in Heaven), Chicken Soup books, history, and, of course, romance (highly censored :>). Majorly into sports. Any ideas for books with a progressive tilt that she might appreciate? Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated!!!! Thanks!

Ok A - we had a family thing - I help my M-in-law cook; everybody was friendly, no drama, all good. Traditional food - yum! Excellent pecan pie! Lots of calls to way out of town folk. People recovering from serious sicknesses are all doing well - adds to the gratitude factor. My kids are great about saying appropriate blessings (without prompting! Again, spirituality is so easy for them... very cool). We had plans to camp for the rest of the weekend, but we were waylaid by DH's cold. Oh well. It's nice to just settle in at home.

Wow - that'll make you remember gratitude in a hurry!!! I'm so glad that she is doing well. There's a great saying: God will tap you with a feather, then He starts throwing bricks. The moral (imo): Watch for feathers!!!

"I still struggle with the idea of a God who is all powerful,and yet sometimes refuses to act when terrible things happen." I understand what you mean... for me the answer lies within the challenge to define terrible. "lots of people died" - is death bad????? "people were afraid and suffering" - some people may have found faith, some did great things, lives were changed. The question to me, is of perspective. I see God as outside time (whether or not it exists, humans seem trapped within :>) with an infinitly different perspective. We can make feeble guesses as to His "purpose", but I doubt we could understand. "My thoughts are not your thoughts" and all. The second book of Ezra in the Apocrypha is even better than Job IMO for pointing this out.

Marcion sounds right... sorry for the brain freeze! /off to Google Yes! Here's a quote: "Marcion taught that the god of the Old Testament was not the true God but rather that the true and higher God had been revealed only with Jesus Christ. Marcion wrote the Antitheses to show the differences between the god of the Old Testament and the true God. Marcion was excommunicated from the Roman church c. 144 CE, but he succeeded in establishing churches of his own to rival the catholic Church for the next two centuries. " As for the Urantia book, no, I haven't read it all. I usually read pretty fast, but that one takes about an hour per paragraph - - - and then I only have 10% comprehension!!! I knew some people years ago who had a study group and were pretty into it. They lived in a centered, peaceful, compassionate way that I admired but I never really "got" the book. Jerry Garcia, huh????? interesting.

...."If you are certain that God exists...is that faith or knowledge"? Joseph Campbell said it best, " I don't need faith, I have experience". I think it's a knowledge that God exists... perhaps it requires faith to remember that he thinks of us.

Oh yes, I've received them.... no, don't like them. BU T, fruitcake cookies are a different animal altogether!!! Yummy.

David - I'd be in the Both/And category again! The idea that the Creator God and the God with us God are separate is, I believe (I know Fred knows this!!!) an ancient heresy called.... (starts with an M???ism ). If you read Genesis carefully, it actually makes a lot of sense. The creator God speaks and interacts very differently than the relational God. The Urantia Book (anybody ever seen that one???) also makes a similar case for separate creator and Immanuel Gods. On the other hand, God is much bigger than we can perceive. If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him. In other words, if you think you can picture God or have the concept of God nailed down, you can be absolutely sure that you are wrong. Finally! A certainty I too believe in and experience God as personal and inexplicably interested in and fond of me. Ever so cool. Still transcendent though.... and so much more that I haven't even thought of yet. That's the fun of this relationship - you never run out of new things to learn about God. This board makes it fun! I appreciate all the big thoughts from everybody here!

My DH developed vertigo a few yrs ago... he had no luck with valium or antihistimines either. He finds that exercise helps the most. Especially things that require large movements ie running, tennis, yoga (Bikram is my new craze). The non-med therapy we found generally involved teaching your body what falling was and was not. Picture this for a good laugh - sit in the middle of the bed with your legs straight out in front of you. Fall sideways. Sit up, repeat to another direction. Hilarious to watch, I promise!!!! Other things that make a Huge difference to him are: salt intake, getting a cold or sinus involvement, dehydration. It's a bear Aletheia! Good luck finding the things that help you. Try Bikram Yoga though.... it sounds like a fad (I'm a yoga snob :>), but it's awesome!!!! Definately shuts down the monkey brain and gives you such a feeling of well-being (once you get a BIG drink and a shower!)

"I agree that God can't be too transcendent or too immanent IF the opposite is also true. For you and me it is. We see it similarly I think. For other groups though, not so much. God is totally "other" or totally here, but not totally both." Thanks for the replies - it clarifies for me and I actually totally agree! Wow, I don't find myself getting to say that very often It is my understanding (sorry - not sure of my sources) that the word translated as "Holy" as in "God is Holy" is often a word that, at the time, really meant "Other". That makes it all clear to me. God is Other. That means that God can be just like me, as close as my breath, and completely transcendent.... AND, my concepts of Him don't have to fit in my brain. I find that to be a strangely satisfying answer. Thanks Flow for the reminder about Contact. One of my favorite books - and one of the only ones that was even better as a movie!!! I spent one summer engrossed in Carl Sagan - very worthwhile - fiction and non - especially in this season of science OR religion.

["It is a paradox isn't it and yet it seems to be right on the tip of my brain. I think so much of it goes back to mankind's believing that for a being to be perfect, for a being to be God, that is must not change. For if it changed, then how could it have been perfect before? I owe a debt to process philosophy and most especially to Taoism for helping me to appreciate that CHANGE is perfection and that our definition of perfection needs to change. " Ok, maybe I'm too simple-minded for this discussion... but it seems clear to me that one of the things we as humans tend to see as intelligence/consciousness is the ability to change/adapt. It seems that God would be so very limited if He couldn't change... and, like a hard-line determinism, I'm stuck with the thought, "then what's the point"???!!! AND, if the purpose of this spiritual quest stuff is to effect our own change, then, are we superior to a God who cannot change????? /off to find advil

I just found a link to this from the TCPC Home page. The 8 points thread seemed awfully long, so I thought I'd start a new one. Personally, I like this better. It seems more practical and leads to action/lifestyle. Summary Version 3.7 The public face of Christianity in America today bears little connection to the historic faith of our ancestors. It represents even less our own faith as Christians who continue to celebrate the gifts of our Creator, revealed and embodied in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Heartened by our experience of the transforming presence of Christ’s Holy Spirit in our world, we find ourselves in a time and place where we will be no longer silent. We hereby mark an end to our silence by making the following affirmations: As people who are joyfully and unapologetically Christian, we pledge ourselves completely to the way of Love. We work to express our love, as Jesus teaches us, in three ways: by loving God, neighbor, and self. (Matt 22:34-40 // Mk 12:28-31 // Lk 10:25-28; Cf. Deut 6:5; Lev. 19:18) Christian love of God includes: 1. Walking fully in the path of Jesus, without denying the legitimacy of other paths God may provide humanity; 2. Listening for God’s Word which comes through daily prayer and meditation, through studying the ancient testimonies which we call Scripture, and through attending to God’s present activity in the world; 3. Celebrating the God whose Spirit pervades and whose glory is reflected in all of God’s Creation, including the earth and its ecosystems, the sacred and secular, the Christian and non-Christian, the human and non-human; 4. Expressing our love in worship that is as sincere, vibrant, and artful as it is scriptural. Christian love of neighbor includes: 5. Engaging people authentically, as Jesus did, treating all as creations made in God’s very image, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, age, physical or mental ability, nationality, or economic class; 6. Standing, as Jesus does, with the outcast and oppressed, the denigrated and afflicted, seeking peace and justice with or without the support of others; 7. Preserving religious freedom and the Church’s ability to speak prophetically to government by resisting the commingling of Church and State; 8. Walking humbly with God, acknowledging our own shortcomings while honestly seeking to understand and call forth the best in others, including those who consider us their enemies; Christian love of self includes: 9. Basing our lives on the faith that, in Christ, all things are made new, and that we, and all people, are loved beyond our wildest imagination – for eternity; 10. Claiming the sacredness of both our minds and our hearts, recognizing that faith and science, doubt and belief serve the pursuit of truth; 11. Caring for our bodies, and insisting on taking time to enjoy the benefits of prayer, reflection, worship and recreation in addition to work; 12. Acting on the faith that we are born with a meaning and purpose; a vocation and ministry that serves to strengthen and extend God’s realm of love. I'd love to hear/read your thoughts everybody!

That's an interesting perspective Darby. I tend to see conservatives as very much wanting to legislate private behaviors - ie bedroom behavior, what is taught in schools, what books are allowed in libraries... It's confusing to me because it is (not that most people realize this - except here, I'm sure!) very contradictory with conservative philosophy.

A couple of things occur - First and foremost, free will. That seems key. Second, the question of evil/enemy. I honestly don't know what I believe/think about this one, but it seems to me (my conservative friends REALLY don't like this arguement ) that if the devil is attacking us, what better place than in our religion???? If the devil wants to move us further from God, if CS Lewis has a picture of evil, then what would be more effective and insidious than rot in the church, slightly off translation of the bible, and a focus on gay marriage and abortion rather than more global christian traits???? The more I think about this, the more likely I am to believe in evil. Thoughts?????

I've fasted up to 4 days... very meaningful. As usual, in a way that defies language. I'd start with juice fasting. I often do this for a busy work day and decide whether or not to eat dinner when the time comes. When I did the 4 day fast (usually 36 hours is my max), I just decided to wait until I wanted to eat. I had 2 glasses of juice over the 4 days, when I had a headache and it went away and I felt fine. I don't notice any problem with returning to eating - iron stomach, I guess I was amazed at my energy level (high), my mood (so calm that I may have attained detachment - in a good way), and my lack of negative physical symptoms. The book The Fasting Path is excellent re: the different reasons to fast (physical vs spiritual) and decreasing anxiety about it. He goes "a little" far for me... talking about 40+ day fasts and being able only to lay on the couch.... BUT, lots of good info and thoughts. I find it very helpful to pray something along the lines of, "let me be empty (of food) to be filled with You".

Soma - I love it! "Annoying Christians "... it's very descriptive. I think we need a lower case "c" though. I propose that this category include people who loudly proclaim Jesus is Lord with their mouth rather than their lives and: 1) Despise books without having read them 2) Fear anything they don't understand (too broad a category to discuss) 3) Choose ignorance 4) Believe firmly that Jesus is on their side (and have rarely, if ever, considered whether they are on God's side) This supercedes the progressive vs. fundamentalist; the liberal vs. conservative... it's a much more useful distinction!!! That's all I've got off the top of my head... anybody?????

Thanks Fred... I thought it was just me! Fuller seems to have a lot of Grace (I know several pastors who went there), but is very exclusivistic.

"But my feelings about things have changed. However, I am a little nervous about being the first one (in my experience anyway)." Can you be anything but first in your own experience... at least, at first ??? I found it to be emotional in a positive and moving way. Nothing scary, just an unexpected DEEP connection.... and teary eyes... I got sprinkled (well, actually patted), not dunked btw

I was distinguishing between intellectual and emotional/experiencial. I think that baptism is an outward sign of an inward change. The inward change is the important part. That's why I was surprised at the emotional impact of the ceremony. Make sense???

Fiddler on the Roof is great - very cultural! The Last Temptation of Christ was much better than I would have guessed - I liked it. I found it on Amazon about a year ago for a few bucks. On the topic of riots and Last Temptation - does anybody understand why it upsets people to think that Jesus might have been married????? I can't figure out how this would change anything.... especially for the fully human and fully divine camp. Wasn't being an unmarried Jewish man much more cause for concern in that culture? Thanks!

ROFL Xian Somehow I got a picture of a giant Jesus (complete with blond hair and blue eyes) with a water slide coming out of his mouth (tongue) and dropping into a deep pool. Hey, it might at least wake us up briefly... that would be a positive! Seriously, I don't intellectually see much point in baptism. I was baptised as an adult and was startled by the deep and intense emotional impact it had on me. It's not just a gesture IMO and experience. I like the covenant of infant baptism as it is consistent with my belief that we are ALL God's children; from a joining the church stance, adult baptism makes more sense, but this can be done in so many other ways.

Here's a link from Beliefnet. Former Senator Danforth is beating the same drum as Wallis - yay! http://www.beliefnet.com/story/176/story_17656_1.html I agree that Wallis is a much better speaker and essay writer than his book indicates. Does anyone else find that many "spiritual" books are wonderful for the first half and repetitive for the second? I thnk many/most could be pared down.