Cynthia

Just got back to the board... I did mean this thread - thanks for "getting" me Fred and Aletheia! . I like all the different viewpoints... only reading things you know you will agree with is a temptation I try to avoid. It is, however, much more comfortable.... I enjoy the more conservative posters here - they tend to write in a way such that I can entertain their point of view with more respect and thought than (sadly) I can muster in other arenas. Bifurcating is a great word though, I'll be working it into conversations for a while!

Fred, Peace, Lily - while I completely agree with what you wrote, not responding was the clearer message!!!

"eventually get around to doing that with Crossan, too, but I am trying now to really immerse myself in some of his major works like Historical Jesus, Birth of Christianity, and hopefully also his new book on Paul so I can have a good basis of comparison for others like Johnson" Exactly what I meant - I didn't mean to imply you weren't taking in other perspectives... more of an enjoy the moment comment.

Luke Timothy Johnson has done some classes for the teaching Company: www.teach12.com Peace - just a thought - when I read an author at the right time for me, I get very caught up in their worldview... later I shuffle it in with everything else :> - enjoy the book, get as much as you can from it... you can temper it or see other sides later if you choose. Does anybody else find that they go back to books they have loved and find them somewhat... flat? It's interesting, but I don't have a good explanation for it.

Hear, hear Fred! Well said, as always :> "Do we have the moral courage to do this? " What a scary question. I hope and pray we do.

Gotta go with Dove dark chocolate... on vanilla or chocolate ice cream - nirvana!

Three weeks - wow! A little off the wall advice??? Eat hot food, laze around in bed, go see some movies, treasure your wife's ability to complete a thought and/or sentence.... The best thought anyone gave me was that everyone will tell you that your life will change, and it will. But, the real difference is that it's not YOUR life anymore. (and that's a good thing) Mazel Tov!

Comrade - yes, yes, and, yes!!! Trek - it's always scary to "step outside your comfort zone" If it hurts, you're probably learning! There is joy in the journey as many have pointed out. Sometimes realizing that things you have believed strongly you no longer believe frees you up to take your current beliefs as a step rather than an outcome. I think spirituality is something you do forever - not something you answer and finish ( I know that's not what you're saying). Annoying sometimes... but as CS Lewis writes - when you start to say 'leave well enough alone', you stop growing spiritually and are, generally, of little use to God.

There is a difference... much of God can't be known, so working it out with God, on your own - while learning from others who have walked closely with God - seems the only way. The illusion that we walk with others is nice, comforting, and fun.... in the end, it's just you and God. As for 12 steps, I don't know if I have 12, but: pray meditate find YOUR thin places READ (Borg, CS Lewis, Phillip Yancey, Brian McLaren, St. Augustine, Hans Kung (Why I am a Christian - - - much less dense than his others), Emmet Fox, Brennan Manning, Thomas Keating, Thich Nhat Hanh, Mother Teresa, Dalai Lama) Pray some more - "listen" for God - the more uncomfortable you feel with getting to know Him, the more He'll poke fun at you. Commmunity - you'll never find one that agrees with you 100% - find one where you get fed and feel good about supporting their causes. Come chat with us - it's good to mull stuff over... lots of smart seekers here - no agreement required! Godspeed!

" I would also hope that ALL Christians, not just liberals, would attempt to act like Jesus...not only in compassion, but in mercy, forgiveness, calling people to repentance and obedience, praising God, etc." From your lips to God's ears Darby - See - I bet everyone here could agree to that

Aletheia - right there with ya sistah. Sterrette - I think your post got lost in the shuffle - I didn't see it before my next one. "I think that the belief among non-Christian progressives that Christianity is inconsistent with progressivness is, in large part, a reaction to their having been told by non-progressive Christians that that progressiveness is inconsistent with Christianity. It has been my observation that this is the case with Christianity and science. I grew up in West Texas. I know from first hand experience that many Christians believe that a scientific viewpoint is inconsistent with Christian faith. While I have always had deep religious beliefs, I was also drawn to science. It was only when I got a physics teaching job at church related college that I was able to resolve some of the tension that had been imposed on the relationship of science and Christianity by non-scientific Christians and non-Christian scientists. I want to be clear that I mean a real scientific viewpoint, and not that pseudoscience where they try to show that evolution isn't real or that the existence of God is provable. I believe that evolution is real, the earth is about 5 billion years old, humans of one sort or another have been around about 1.5 million years, and that the existence of God is a matter of faith, not proof." I agree! I like the idea (not mine!) that God gave us two works by which to know Him, the Bible and the World (explained by science). The more I learn about science (really any branch so far), the more I see God. I'm sorry for the people who are too threatened to see how much in science (phi, pi, string theory, quantum physics, etc.) make it soo clear that a conscious design is the obvious answer. That science helps us to understand God, not to deny God.

Thanks Fred!!!! Actually I think it is Emmett Fox who interprets this in almost a Karma debt sort of way!

"In the end the Christian spiritual journey should be about continuing on the path of spiritual growth. The more resources, groups, books and dialogues we can utilize to help us to do that, the better." Very true John! Thanks for the information about LTQ and ALPHA. I'll keep them in mind for the next round of theological information craving!!! (honestly, I'm hoping it'll be a while - somewhat exhausting! )

Humorously enough, there is a Heart of Christianity thread on the Book Discussion forum, where we discussed, among other things, prayer and intervention. laugh.gif Yes, but not (as I recall) in the same tone I loved The Heart of Christianity! As far as interaction vs intervention... I don't see a meaningful distinction. I do sympathize with the "but not like them" impulse "I do think God is there to offer guidance and comfort. I think most of the time that guidance is rather roundabout and subtle, but there might be times ... smile.gif Agreed! I just don't think I have any significant information on what causes/compels/encourages/??? God to interact/intervene. "Borg also rails against the notion that God is in the business of punishment and reward. I agree with this. There is a scripture which I cannot id - somebody help! - regarding the idea that the more you know of spiritual things, the more will be expected of you... makes you want to put the books down - quickly!

Ditto to Aletheia!!

"I have experienced times when I feel God was "nudging" me (for want of a better term) in a particular direction. I have also had times when I felt God's love and comfort in very DIRECT ways. I guess you could call these happenings "intervention"? I dunno. I wouldn't call them that, but perhaps I'm nitpicking." It seems to me that any interaction would be intervention.... but that may be research training. The experiences I mentioned would fall into the same categories you describe above. So, if not intervention, then what would you call it? For me, those times of nudging or intense knowing have a significant impact on my life/decisions/etc. How about you?

This is interesting. Thinking about prayer... I do believe that God intervenes. I have experienced it. To state that He cannot seems to put limits on God which, to me, seems inappropriate... hubris??? I'm not fragile or hostile about this, I'd be interested in other people's experiences and beliefs. As far as praying if God doesn't ever intervene... it seems that would involve getting yourself in line/sync with God??? (part of intercessionary prayer too) Perhaps meditation? (Which I practice and find very worthwhile). Anyway, just thinking "aloud". I love having people to discuss these things with!

"There needs to be more open dialogue and less labelling and elitist grand-standing, in my opinion, if progressive Christianity is ever going to get a wider audience.... Anti-Christian, anti-faith, secularist rants by leading progressive commentators and pundits, like Bill Maher, Al Franken, and others shows that there is still a great divide between the liberal media and liberal people of faith... We must close the gap by cultivating an open dialogue in the public square, while also continuing to uplift the distinctives that make us progressive people of faith. Absolutely!!!!! "They do really lay out the vision in the later sessions of the course. I particularly liked what Crossan and Cobb had to say, as well as Hauerwas (although he only appears in about 2 of the sessions). Borg has generally good ideas, but I think his tone comes across as ivory towerish and arrogant at times- like when he rejects the value of prayer as basically being nothing more than a spiritual placebo. And basically dismisses anyone who views scripture as anything more than "a metaphorical human product written by and for an ancient community." This is interesting - I'm not familiar with Living the Questions (off to Google ), but I've heard Borg speak a couple of times (as recently as March, 2005) - and he prays so beautifully. He generally chooses ancient prayers and, I can't know his heart - but - his presence, voice, tone (and all the indefinables) - speak of the presence of God. He struck me as much more spiritual - for real rather than ivory tower - when I saw him than when I read his books. Basically, Borg gave me the intellectual gift of being able to accept Jesus and christianity without feeling foolish or feeling that I had to do it on popular terms (I live in the South). This was phenomenally huge to me and I will always be grateful to him. Seeing him in person made me think that he has a much deeper spiritual life than comes across in his books. Since making peace with God, church, and my approach to following Jesus, I find the argumentative, angry approach less appealing. It has a place and has value - it's just not my thing at the moment. Working to bring people together strikes me as Godly. All this division (remember the Church Lady from SNL)... could it be.......

Thanks for the artice Peace! Political posturing or not, for the real people in the streets this is huge. It will vastly increase many people's level of or access to information that they might otherwise not choose to accept. Just the idea that you can be a christian and not vote for Bush was difficult for many people I know. (My view is the opposite - but there you go - human nature = us vs. them). Perhaps God is working. I still see rainbows - a lot lately - I just can't fathom that kind of love or Grace.

I haven't read enough Spong to know, but with Borg, he is clear that if fundamentalism is working for someone, then you should not challenge it. He sees his theology as being for people who cannot be christian in a fundamentalist way; who need a different take on the Gospels. At least that's how I hear him You're right about Campolo, McLaren, and Wallis - they are purposefully and admirably building bridges. I just finished Generous Orthodoxy - it's a gotta read y'all!

I don't think you can find firm lines around these labels. You will find people in any church or group that like some things and don't like others. Full agreement, as we find on these boards, is elusive and unlikely.

I think that the problem begins when people "return" to thoughts of faith around/after college. If you look at most public/visible christians, most thinking, socially conscious, functioning people will say something along the lines of, "I don't know what I am, but it's NOT that!!!" Been there. The people who, perhaps, grew up with or gained knowledge of good, intelligent, thoughtful people with faith are in the minority. I think that the conservative right should be brought to task for the numbers of people they have driven away from Jesus and any vision of God. Much praise to Wallis, Borg, Spong, Campolo, and McLaren for helping people understand that it is not an either or situation.

"Under the Banner of Heaven" goes into the LDS church in detail. Jon Kraukauer (Into Thin Air) seems to have done quite a bit of research and discusses the tolerance issues and perceptions of the world (as it relates to the Mormon church in particular). It's a really interesting book. Not at all what I expected when I looked at it.

Keep us updated! What did you propose for your town?

I really like his missional ideas, the idea that salvation (currently) is focused on selfish ends (ie: How do I get to heaven) and non-exclusivity. The idea that grace is a gift, freely given, that should be passed through you (as opposed to stoping with you) to the rest of the world, christian or not, is wonderful to me. It expresses an idea that I hadn't been able to voice. This book seems (more progressive, more moderate, less conservative - choose depending on your definition! ) than a New Kind of Christian. Perhaps, though, that book was written more for people coming from a fundamentalist or very conservative background (not me). I love the title. It captures so perfectly the inability to "name" spiritual beliefs, God, spiritual experiences, AND the changing nature of all of it over time.