PaulS

I personally think it can. For instance, hanging on to ideas that homosexual love is 'evil' does nothing to helps us grow into acceptance and love for all. Dare I say we will never have peace until we stop judging others as 'wrong'. I like Ben Harper's words from his song Burn One Down here - "My choice is what i chose to do; and if I'm causin no harm, it shouldn't bother you. Your choice is who you chose to be; and if your causin NO harm, then your alright with me. Similarly, our ideas of justice can be warped if we believe in an ultimate judge being justified in sentencing somebody to eternal pain and misery. If people accept that as a fair and reasonable thing to do, then who knows where to draw the line on what is fair and reasonable! I think evolution has taken plenty of dead ends and wrong turns, so always moving forward doesn't seem to be natural necessarily in the short term, but ultimately the end result is what wins out in evolution.

I think this notion of 'truth' is very vague. What may be one person's 'truth' could be another person's lie. If we have experiences beyond our control, let's say mental health disease or even experiences like sexual abuse, these things can affect our 'choices'. So to say we are free to choose, doesn't seem to fit always for me.

I think the God portrayed in the Old Testament is a tribal God of the Israelites. I think like other cultures, they had 'their' God to explain 'their' story. Their God suited their culture of the time with God being a 'King', a 'Warrior', a 'Man' - all of these ways of understanding God came from the culture of the day. I think people who take the bible literally have to somehow make these old stories 'fit' to feel secure in their religion. How else could one celebrate a God who orders a people to commit acts of genocide right down to the last baby, infant, child, even animal! This God himself is justified committing genocide via the Flood based on the notion that the 'world' was evil (all bar Noah etc). But this would mean again that every baby, infant & child was also evil. Really? There are a lot of things over the last several thousand years that we have done away with, but there are some that we are still clinging too (homophobia, racism, animal cruelty, etc). I think we are evolving as a species and our morals and values will continue to change.

Welcome Elen, I think it might have been Spong or Borg that write about understanding Jesus through the eyes of the Jewish tradition and that as Christianity moved further away from Israel people had less understanding of the teachings in a Jewish context, and began to relate to the teachings from their own context. I think this is where taking Jesus' death as a sacrifice to God began to creep in and take on the 'substitutionary atonement' meaning. I look forward to your participation here and hope you find this community a beneficial place. Cheers Paul

I don't know of any biblical scholar that dates Mark before 40AD, so I too would be interested in this 'source' that Craig mentions.

Probably the closet i come to being in a relationship with God is the feeling I get when I'm with a large group of friends, children playing, everybody laughing and enjoying each other's company. Or when I am immersed in nature, whether it be on a bush walk or mucking out my chicken pen or weeding the garden. Those two simple activities/experiences fulfil me. I am more decided about what God is not, than what God is.

I couldn't say it better myself! Jesus as a sacrifice only makes sense to me as somebody else's interpretation of his existence. I don't think for a minute that crucifixion was Jesus' mission, rather I think he held strong views about the tyranny of religion and politics and was making his points about focussing on relationship with God.

Chuck, I was raised a fundamental Christianity but left the Church when I got to about 19. A big part of it was 'rebellion' but also I became a police officer at that age and became exposed to a lot more of the world than I thought I knew. Questions arose and old paradigms didn't fit. I reject Christianity outright and said I was atheist. I wish I had thought it through more then, but I didn't. Fast forward about 20 years and I went through a bout of anxiety (over money). Whilst I was vulnerable in this condition a well-meaning Christian friend told me it was God's way of calling me back! I instantly spiralled into 9 months or more of acute depression and worry about going to hell. I even got to a point where I thought suicide was my only way to end the pain. Thankfully I didn't go that far. I say all this because I think I went through perhaps what you might be experiencing to some degree feeling 'lost'. I was questioning everything I had been taught, processing that most of it wasn't true, but finding myself unable to shake it. What I did is spend time reading and writing at this forum, listening to podcasts by Interfaith Voices, reading biblical scholarship by the likes of Marcus Borg, Bart Erhman, Spong too, and many other authors considered 'Progressive Christians'. I found a mix of biblical and religious scholarship, and community with compassionate human beings, helped me reformulate my religious beliefs and find peace.

Welcome Apollo, I hope you enjoy and benefit from the participation here. Cheers Paul

Believing in the Trinity is one thing, believing you need 'salvation' is another. Typically modern Christianity has characterised this 'salvation' as being saved from eternal damnation to a place called Hell. I don't believe this type of salvation is require because I don't believe any loving God would create a place of eternal torment. Subsequently for me, belief in the Trinity comes down to a better understand of and/or relationship with, God, and frankly, I don't really see any benefit in believing God is triune that would make such belief a necessity. Oh, that's after I have considered what 'evidnce' we may have and as far as what I can tell, I don't think the Bible supports a realistic interpretation of a Trinity.

Linda, I'm so glad you have been able to think for yourself on these issues and work your way through it. It can often be hard because of that comfort and fear factor! Welcome to the forum! Cheers Paul

I think morality is evolutionary and is still developing. Maybe God plays some part in this - I simply can't say yes or no, but clearly morality is often different between different cultures and societies, which to me suggests our morality is guided by our experiences as a culture. Sometimes that might get rocked to the core, as perhaps it did for Jesus followers 2000 or so years ago, resulting in a change of direction. I couldn't tell you anything about Jesus' feelings or doubts. My guess would be that he experienced those things probably just like any other human - in a wide and varied way.

Welcome Thomas, I hope you enjoy participating here. Paul

Who knows!

I'm not much help Dutch, I've run a million miles from organised Christianity and it sends a chill down my back to think of sending my children back into the lion's den! I know that's not your intention but for me personally, I'd rather keep my highly-influenced children away from any spirituality unless the seek it/find it for themselves.

Today I am nursing a fractured shoulder (scapula), a couple of cracked ribs, and some missing skin after my motorbike's front tyre blew out whilst rounding a corner. Bike is now for sale - I'm getting to old for this!

I guess I meet my aesthetic need (although I've never thought of it as that - a need) through nature and community. Sometimes when I'm sitting with friends I feel connection and appreciation, often when I'm out sailing or driving past the ocean I feel a sort of 'oneness'. I particular feel oneness when I'm out camping in the middle of nowhere!

And welcome to you too Linda, We encourage new members to say hi and introduce themselves on the forum, so please feel free to do so and tell us a little about yourself. I hope you enjoy participating here too. Cheers Paul PS - Not sure how to rectify the 'thumbs down' error. Maybe Joseph will read this and can remove it.

Welcome fbraakman, I trust you will find this forum a useful and nurturing place for your journey. Cheers Paul

I agree with Dutch, and further to his points I would add that we should consider what was 'not' said in relation to Jesus dying for our sins. For example, why die for humankind's sins only 2014 (or so) years ago? Why not back in Noah's day or Moses's etc? If as Paul suggests, God loves man so much, why didn't he send a saviour earlier? To me it is clear that Paul is not writing about fulfilled prophecy, but interpreting what Jesus' life and death means to Paul. I can respect Paul's opinion, but I don't have to accept it as gospel.

I found the 'practical' approach helped me out greatly when I was in such a hole - reading works by the likes of Marcus Borg and Bart Erhman who helped me understand a lot about biblical interpretation, the culture surrounding the various authors of the books of the bible, the inconsistencies and contradictions that appear if one is to read the bible as THE word of God, as opposed to the many and various words of men providing their interpretation of God and understanding of their circumstances and time in history. I also listened to a few podcasts - Interfaith Radio, The Bible Geek, and some university lectures concerning the books of the OT & NT. There was also the excellent website of Philip Gulley, a Quaker preacher who doesn't believe in a vindictive, condemning God. It is very confusing Southernwonder, but allow yourself the room to be confused. The fact that it is so confusing gave me strength that there couldn't possibly be a vindictive, judgemental God waiting just beyond the clouds somewhere to convict you for not getting it 'right' in your short stay here on earth. I wish you well. There is light at the end of the tunnel (and it's not a train! )

I suffered and wrestled with this problem about 5 years ago, for the better part of 12 months. Having been raised fundy, I left the fold at 18 and never looked back. When I was 40 I suffered stress and anxiety over money issues, and then my fundy friend told me that it was God's way of calling me back! From there I spiralled into stress and anxiety about God & Hell for the next 10 or so months. It's not fun, but if I could save you any trouble I would say there is NO vindictive God, it is a harmful myth pedalled by people who either don't know any better or who want to use it as power. I went through quite a journey coming to that conclusion, but I am glad I finally got there!

Nice.

I think I decide value & degree as a result of my experiences.

I have no position on God/god other than there are many things I don't understand that perhaps could be answered by God/god. Then again, maybe there's another answer.