PaulS

Chuck, I was raised a fundamental Christianity but left the Church when I got to about 19. A big part of it was 'rebellion' but also I became a police officer at that age and became exposed to a lot more of the world than I thought I knew. Questions arose and old paradigms didn't fit. I reject Christianity outright and said I was atheist. I wish I had thought it through more then, but I didn't. Fast forward about 20 years and I went through a bout of anxiety (over money). Whilst I was vulnerable in this condition a well-meaning Christian friend told me it was God's way of calling me back! I instantly spiralled into 9 months or more of acute depression and worry about going to hell. I even got to a point where I thought suicide was my only way to end the pain. Thankfully I didn't go that far. I say all this because I think I went through perhaps what you might be experiencing to some degree feeling 'lost'. I was questioning everything I had been taught, processing that most of it wasn't true, but finding myself unable to shake it. What I did is spend time reading and writing at this forum, listening to podcasts by Interfaith Voices, reading biblical scholarship by the likes of Marcus Borg, Bart Erhman, Spong too, and many other authors considered 'Progressive Christians'. I found a mix of biblical and religious scholarship, and community with compassionate human beings, helped me reformulate my religious beliefs and find peace.

Welcome Apollo, I hope you enjoy and benefit from the participation here. Cheers Paul

Believing in the Trinity is one thing, believing you need 'salvation' is another. Typically modern Christianity has characterised this 'salvation' as being saved from eternal damnation to a place called Hell. I don't believe this type of salvation is require because I don't believe any loving God would create a place of eternal torment. Subsequently for me, belief in the Trinity comes down to a better understand of and/or relationship with, God, and frankly, I don't really see any benefit in believing God is triune that would make such belief a necessity. Oh, that's after I have considered what 'evidnce' we may have and as far as what I can tell, I don't think the Bible supports a realistic interpretation of a Trinity.

Linda, I'm so glad you have been able to think for yourself on these issues and work your way through it. It can often be hard because of that comfort and fear factor! Welcome to the forum! Cheers Paul

I think morality is evolutionary and is still developing. Maybe God plays some part in this - I simply can't say yes or no, but clearly morality is often different between different cultures and societies, which to me suggests our morality is guided by our experiences as a culture. Sometimes that might get rocked to the core, as perhaps it did for Jesus followers 2000 or so years ago, resulting in a change of direction. I couldn't tell you anything about Jesus' feelings or doubts. My guess would be that he experienced those things probably just like any other human - in a wide and varied way.

Welcome Thomas, I hope you enjoy participating here. Paul

Who knows!

I'm not much help Dutch, I've run a million miles from organised Christianity and it sends a chill down my back to think of sending my children back into the lion's den! I know that's not your intention but for me personally, I'd rather keep my highly-influenced children away from any spirituality unless the seek it/find it for themselves.

Today I am nursing a fractured shoulder (scapula), a couple of cracked ribs, and some missing skin after my motorbike's front tyre blew out whilst rounding a corner. Bike is now for sale - I'm getting to old for this!

I guess I meet my aesthetic need (although I've never thought of it as that - a need) through nature and community. Sometimes when I'm sitting with friends I feel connection and appreciation, often when I'm out sailing or driving past the ocean I feel a sort of 'oneness'. I particular feel oneness when I'm out camping in the middle of nowhere!

And welcome to you too Linda, We encourage new members to say hi and introduce themselves on the forum, so please feel free to do so and tell us a little about yourself. I hope you enjoy participating here too. Cheers Paul PS - Not sure how to rectify the 'thumbs down' error. Maybe Joseph will read this and can remove it.

Welcome fbraakman, I trust you will find this forum a useful and nurturing place for your journey. Cheers Paul

I agree with Dutch, and further to his points I would add that we should consider what was 'not' said in relation to Jesus dying for our sins. For example, why die for humankind's sins only 2014 (or so) years ago? Why not back in Noah's day or Moses's etc? If as Paul suggests, God loves man so much, why didn't he send a saviour earlier? To me it is clear that Paul is not writing about fulfilled prophecy, but interpreting what Jesus' life and death means to Paul. I can respect Paul's opinion, but I don't have to accept it as gospel.

I found the 'practical' approach helped me out greatly when I was in such a hole - reading works by the likes of Marcus Borg and Bart Erhman who helped me understand a lot about biblical interpretation, the culture surrounding the various authors of the books of the bible, the inconsistencies and contradictions that appear if one is to read the bible as THE word of God, as opposed to the many and various words of men providing their interpretation of God and understanding of their circumstances and time in history. I also listened to a few podcasts - Interfaith Radio, The Bible Geek, and some university lectures concerning the books of the OT & NT. There was also the excellent website of Philip Gulley, a Quaker preacher who doesn't believe in a vindictive, condemning God. It is very confusing Southernwonder, but allow yourself the room to be confused. The fact that it is so confusing gave me strength that there couldn't possibly be a vindictive, judgemental God waiting just beyond the clouds somewhere to convict you for not getting it 'right' in your short stay here on earth. I wish you well. There is light at the end of the tunnel (and it's not a train! )

I suffered and wrestled with this problem about 5 years ago, for the better part of 12 months. Having been raised fundy, I left the fold at 18 and never looked back. When I was 40 I suffered stress and anxiety over money issues, and then my fundy friend told me that it was God's way of calling me back! From there I spiralled into stress and anxiety about God & Hell for the next 10 or so months. It's not fun, but if I could save you any trouble I would say there is NO vindictive God, it is a harmful myth pedalled by people who either don't know any better or who want to use it as power. I went through quite a journey coming to that conclusion, but I am glad I finally got there!

Nice.

I think I decide value & degree as a result of my experiences.

I have no position on God/god other than there are many things I don't understand that perhaps could be answered by God/god. Then again, maybe there's another answer.

G'day Daniel, I possibly flew over your turf when visiting Vegas from LA back in 1990 when I visited the US! I'm all the way over here at the bottom of the world in Mandurah, Western Australia. Welcome to the forum and I also hope joining this forum provides some support or is an outlet for the progressive community you are missing. Cheers Paul

Okay, I think I understand what I am lumping together as Rom's, Joseph's and Soma's thoughts here: The universe is unfolding as it is meant to, with all sorts of actions in the mix, including things that are typically referred to as 'good or bad', and many shades of grey in between To accept or not accept those actions/behaviours is also part of how things are meant to be Our 'free will' in regards to how we view those things might not be free at all but a consequence of our genetic makeup and environmental circumstances So whilst we might think we are using our free will, we possibly aren't, but nonetheless our responses to these things/actions/behaviours is part of the universe unfolding So by all means be an activist for what you think is the best thing for the unfolding universe, because even though you might not know it, that is what the universe unfolding means for you Am I on the mark so far?

Rom, There are certainly instances where it is difficult to assess whether something is good or bad, harmful or helpful, beneficial or destroying. Natural elements like the sun, animals instincts, or a persons medical problems are good examples of these grey areas. But I don't think the rape example I use is just a 'societal' no no. I see no benefit out of that action, only harm and hurt, and therefore I feel comfortable saying it is bad. Do not do it. Do not allow it. Condemn it (which I'm sure you do). It's just that saying things 'happen as they are meant to' doesn't ring true for me. To accept certain acts, behaviours and circumstances simply as 'the universe unfolding how it is meant to' simply isn't satisfactory for me. It doesn't make any sense to me. What does it mean to you - don't get angry about certain actions? don't get upset about certain behaviours? don't be an activist for change? I guess that's what I'm trying to get my head around.

Soma, Those are all very noble traits of course, and when one has the opportunity to sit, think and dwell on the state of mankind we can wonder about all sorts of things. But we simply don't operate like that on a day to day basis. We make judgement calls every day. In fact we need to or else we wouldn't be able to function or survive as a species. Surely you must apply some logic to your decision-making in certain situations and thereby make a judgement? If you see a woman being raped do you intervene to stop it because you instinctively know that it is wrong to rape, or do you stop to consider that judging lacks understanding and results in lack of wholeness? I know that judging others can lead to misunderstanding, but also there needs to be judgement or else things don't work as I see it.

Just possibly they are not good or bad, full stop. When a hyena kills a lion cub is that good or bad? Well let me ask you, is it good or bad that an adult man should sexually abuse and terrorise 3 young girls he keeps imprisoned in his basement for decades?

For the most part what I think of as good and bad coincide with what I like and dislike. But are they good/bad because you like/dislike them, or because they are good/bad?

It is just the opinion that one is better than the other that fades away. I think this is fine in hypotheticals or low risk situations, but how does say paedophilia sit on your scale, Larry? Isn't even having an opinion in the first place the universe at work?