soma Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Romans 8:38-39 (KJV) Nothing can separate us from the love of God. I was wondering why I do my spiritual practice. Why do I keep trying to open the door when the walls enclosing the room are an illusion? My small self keeps bumping into those walls and is trying to convince me that those walls are real. A glimpse outside, a peek through the portal shows me that those walls are an illusion. I think as progressive Christians we are into the direct perception, the viewing of things as they are................The seeing in the moment. Being in the here and now. I think this is what makes a progressive Christian. While others are building structures, institutions, and walls with faith, we are trying to peer through them, around them or beyond them. The Tao and silence are always there even when there is noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivanna Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 The ending of this chapter reminds me of Goethe’s line, “Just trust yourself and you’ll know how to live.” One other thought on Chapter 23--it focuses on the idea that nothing in the universe lasts, except the Tao. Paul in Corinthians affirms that love never ends; Jesus said his words would never pass away. Perhaps they are all equivalent in meaning. The Tao seems not only helpful but necessary as a complement to the bible – especially since quoting from scripture seems so liable to be misconstrued as literalism, even among progressives. This website has much commentary, a forum, blog etc-- http://www.centertao.org/tao-te-ching/dc-lau/ A sample: “One important difference between the Taoist and Western worldviews (Jewish, Christian, Kabbalah, Islam, Hindu) is their inherent moral undertone. They all rest on the proposition that we as humans are uniquely capable of free choice. Choice, free will is an illusion manifested in thought. Yet, each generation buys into its cultural beliefs or solutions. I'm of the view that as long as we hold out for these idealistic solutions nothing will change. Every solution we innovate creates at least one more problem. The Taoist view seeks to reverse this tendency, and conform completely to nature. The truth is, nature embodies both unity and division….” Accepting this view might bring a certain contentment if not hope and inspiration. Somewhere between the Taoist and Christian perspectives there is a balance that feels more fully human than either one by itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 rivanna, I like the way you incorporate many religious cultures to this discussion. I also think of the Tao as a cooperative with different entities. In the Christian culture I see the Tao as God the Father or since they express the Tao as a female I could say God the Mother. Jesus is my tangent or point linking my physical and mental to God the Almighty or pure consciousness. In my last analogy I was in a room with four walls and a door partially open. In that I could say Jesus is holding the door open for me and I see beautiful light of pure consciousness shinning through it, but when I go to walk through the portal Jesus is in the way crucified in the doorway, but I can still see the light. When I get close, Jesus says intellectually you think the four walls are an illusions so you must go through them. I look at those walls built with time that makes my communion with God in the future, not in the here and now. Jesus says to go through the wall one must serve and savor the people, animals and ecosystem around the wall that is why you are here. When I do those things, I start to see light shinning through the wall and there are not any cracks. I built that wall so I can go through it and I am sure the cooperative will help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 Chapter 24 now open for comments.... He who stands on tiptoe doesn't stand form. He who rushes ahead doesn't go far. He who tries to shine dims his own light. He who defines himself can't know who he really is. He who has power over others can't empower himself. He who clings to his work will create nothing that endures. If you want to accord with the Tao, just do your job, then let go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Chapter 24 now open for comments.... He who stands on tiptoe doesn't stand form. He who rushes ahead doesn't go far. He who tries to shine dims his own light. He who defines himself can't know who he really is. He who has power over others can't empower himself. He who clings to his work will create nothing that endures. If you want to accord with the Tao, just do your job, then let go. Various thoughts suggest themselves, jiggle around in my mind. The first was a comment someone once made on another forum, about how our entire life can become just a succession of anticipations and epitaphs and we never actually "rest" in the moment. Another was a joke I remember where a Buddhist sits in the lotus position and is heard saying......"I'd read so much about it beforehand that now I'm actually enlightened its a bit of a disappointment." I think we can "define" ourselves, convince ourselves we are what we would like to be,take pride in the labels we adorn ourselves with............all coming at the price of losing ourselves entirely. (Which suggests at this moment the words of Pema Chodron who spoke of "loving kindness" as meaning that we could still be crazy after all these years There seems so much mercy and grace in those words, loving kindness beginning with ourselves) Anyway, its good to know just who we are, without pretence, that - however mixed up - we exist within the grace of infinite compassion. It does seem to be paradoxical that its total acceptance that apparently initiates transformation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 It reminds me that all is vanity. To raise oneself is actually to lower another which is to in a spiritual sense lower oneself. To make oneself shine is to dim another which in a spiritual sense is to dim oneself. etc. One can't know who one is by defining oneself because ones true self is beyond definition. I would agree with tariki that total acceptance initiates transformation. Also to me, there is no difference in the enlightened and unenlightened except that the latter limits himself to form. While the latter limits truth to the measure of the world, the former sees truth as the formless substratum of the world. Yes, perhaps a bit of a disappointment to most as in your joke, tariki. Perhaps this temporary life here is AS my Dad spoke on his death bed, it is seen as one big cosmic joke. No offence meant to anyone. Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivanna Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Good quote from Pema Chodron. The tone of honesty/modesty is inspiring. Stanza 24 seems fairly straightforward – repeating themes from past chapters, on the need for humility, restraint, avoiding excess and extremes. That last part is a challenge for artistic types, balancing common sense with creative expression, but I feel that studying the Tao has helped me the past few months. One of my art friends heard a saying recently, possibly from Eckhard Tolle - “warm your heart and cool your emotions.” It seems in keeping with the Tao – an ideal of detachment from negative energy while staying receptive and compassionate, if I interpret it correctly. “he who stands on tiptoe doesn’t stand firm” -- Lao Tzu’s visual images are perfect illustrations for the concept. Mitchell’s note on line 9: “the other is the self” -- if we really understand this, we are able to act wisely. A simple but profound insight, corresponding to the teachings of Jesus. The gospel says there is no us and them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 It seems the purpose of the Tao, religion, ritual and symbolism is to give meaning to life beyond the mentally and physically dominated world. As the mind explores these things it is led to thoughts that lie beyond the grasp of reason. It seems if these practices are done in a meaningless way, that person is wasting time because the person who knows the significance of what he is doing, the Tao can overcome the tendencies and make real the purpose of one’s life. I think regardless of the suffering one has experienced one can achieve a new state of mind and be born again, when the focus is changed. I would venture to say that this new state of mind is living in the present and is a projection of living in eternity. The ego exist and has pride in the past and fear for the future so letting go of the future and the past lets the ego drop away too. I feel in the Tao, in true reality, it is impossible to live outside the present and to put God in the future because this implies that God is not eternal and present. The proof is in our experience by experiment and not theory. When one concentrates only on what is happening in the present, the moment is pure awareness without any desire. It seems to live in the past or the future invokes memory, anticipation and causes anxiety because these are forms of desires, dreams and fantasies. It is a habit to live in this unreality, but as one discards and releases all ideas contrary to the present, the experience seems to achieve full measure in the here and now. This reality is total and whole, not the past or future because we are not looking over our shoulder at the past or standing on our toes to see what’s ahead in the future. I like the way Jesus, Chondron, Tolle and the Tao say the same thing in one sentence or phrase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 It seems to me to be nicely put by your words, Soma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Mitchell’s note on line 9: “the other is the self” -- if we really understand this, we are able to act wisely. A simple but profound insight, corresponding to the teachings of Jesus. The gospel says there is no us and them. It really is amazing how memory works! Often I can't remember the name of someone half an hour after an introduction, yet rivanna's note here jogged my mind to a short sentence in an essay on Nirvana by Thomas Merton, contained in his book "Zen and the Birds of Appetite". The only salvation, as Christ said, is found in losing oneself - that is by opening oneself to the other as another self. This also suggests to me another passage from a Buddhist scripture where the Buddha is depicted as going down into the dark and murky depths of one of the many Buddhist hells, holding his lamp aloft. By the light of the Buddha's lamp those who are dwelling there are heard to say....."Ah, there are others here besides myself!" Perhaps another paradox, that the "unity of all things" is revealed when we truly see the "other". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 Chapter 25 now open for comments...... There was something formless and perfect before the universe was born. It is serene. Empty. Solitary. Unchanging. Infinite. Eternally present. It is the mother of the universe. For lack of a better name, I call it the Tao. It flows through all things, inside and outside, and returns to the origin of all things. The Tao is great. The universe is great. Earth is great. Man is great. These are the four great powers. Man follows the earth. Earth follows the universe. The universe follows the Tao. The Tao follows only itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Must admit that this particular verse suggests only more quotes and stories in my mind! One of these days I'll have something original to say, but then it does say that only the Tao follows itself! Getting back to the quotes.........a sentence from the earliest Hindu scriptues.......Thou art formless - your only form is our knowledge of you. And a story.........about some little Jewish guy - apparently the Jewish equivalent of a saint - who travelled up and down the land. One day he was so inspired when he saw the long line of worshippers following his carriage that he got out and followed it himself. The word "unchanging" does seem to jar , particularly as it seems to be linked to "perfect". Perhaps an unchanging state of creativity? Words and straw!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 tariki I like your stories and memories. They trigger my stories and memories. If the Tao doesn't follow anything then everything is within the Tao. There is no past or future because time is within the Tao also so past, present and future are happening at the same time within the Tao, the ever present moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivanna Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Chapter 25 didnt strike me as going beyond previous ones, but I found interesting stuff at the D.C. Lau website. Also, was amused to see that Mitchell adds one note, on the four powers line Ho hum. From CenterTaos comments on this stanza The Chinese word for nature expresses a broader view, in sharp contrast to how nature is often viewed in the West. Nature is much more profound than anything humans did or didnt do. Our ideal of self leaves us with a deep sense of disconnection and insignificance, which is why we have religion in the first place. Ive sensed all along that the Tao refers to quite a different definition of nature, so I was glad to see this expressed. However, to me it seems like the other way around-- nature is what makes us feel negligible, while religion or faith is where we seek to feel eternally accepted and significant. The more important it is to change my circumstances, the more insane life becomes. When I get pushed into this chaos, it helps to stop for a moment and attempt to return to the silent void within myself. Not sure how this ties is with the current chapter, but I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted November 18, 2009 Author Share Posted November 18, 2009 To me this chapter re-enforces the impossibility of existence without God and to ever really be separate from him except in our thinking and then even the thinking could not happen without God who is in and through (the substratum of) all things without exception. To me it is meaningless to ask the question, where is God? To me, the question assumes there is a location and location assumes time and form . Yes, the Tao, formless, eternally present , in and out and through all things. Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 tariki I like your stories and memories. They trigger my stories and memories. soma, When I reflect upon the various connections my mind makes with the words of others, on how the many stories and quotes pop into my mind, it helps with understanding. Either as illuminating the ideas of others or by helping to define them by my own memories being just slightly off centre. Whatever, often I seem to find more in a few words than in an entire book. Maybe because the words often find me unawares. I need to be crept up on at times! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted November 26, 2009 Author Share Posted November 26, 2009 Chapter 26 now open for comments ..... Happy thanksgiving! Perhaps we will leave this chapter open a little longer since everyone is busy with Thanksgiving and the start of Xmas shopping.. The heavy is the root of the light. The unmoved is the source of all movement. Thus the Master travels all day without leaving home. However splendid the views, she stays serenely in herself. Why should the lord of the country flit about like a fool? If you let yourself be blown to and fro, you lose touch with your root. If you let restlessness move you, you lose touch with who you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 A word that comes to mind is "diffuseness"........suggesting a scattering of the mind, a lack of centre. My everyday mind unfortunately, more often than not. There is an essay by the Theravada Bhikkhu Nyanaponika Thera based upon some verses from an ancient Buddhist text, the Sutta Nipata. He speaks of the frantic flutterings of craving in which the mind can be caught. There is promised quite another "lack of centre"! Unborn emptiness has let go of the extremes of being and non-being. Thus it is both the centre itself and the central path. Emptiness is the track on which the centred person moves. (Tsongkapa, Tibetan lama, translation by Stephen Batchelor) I think the promise also involves a complete forgetfulness of "self" which means, as Dogen says, to be awakened by all things. I seem to find a sense of peace just by reading the words of this verse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 I feel the body, the mind and the world outside are not impediments to our spiritual liberation, but instruments to attain it. I think that is why we exert a control over our body as humans and are not controlled by the cravings of our senses and organs like the animals. I we imagine a wagon being drawn by ten horses, which are the senses and organs. It can go wherever the horses please, but the occupants would never get to where they wanted to go unless they picked up the reins which is the mind. The reins help us to get control of the animals within and gives direction in this world. Our desires are the horses; the reins are the mind so the occupant of the wagon has to be the soul the Tao within. This is where the ‘pure I' consciousness is important because it is the mind's link to the Tao. I use to think I was a body with consciousness, but now I realize that I am consciousness with a body, that we are all at one with the Tao. Returning to the illustration of the horses drawing the cart. The horses are the glands, instincts, organs and desires. The reins controlling the horses are the five layers of the mind, and the person holding the reins is the will, our spirit. Now, the person whom is the silent passenger observing all the actions is the soul our great Mother the Tao. If our attention is given to the soul who is the tranquil passenger, the horses, occupants and everything on the ride can start to enjoy the trip; otherwise, they will be running all over the country side endlessly following their desires from one object to another. Going beyond all the systems good or bad, right or wrong, that support our ideas is liberating and opens us to receive the highest bliss available in the Tao. This attention to the soul or communion with the Mother, The Tao, Our Father in Christianity is unity and pure bliss. We have so much to be thankful for especially if we have nothing to run after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 I feel the body, the mind and the world outside are not impediments to our spiritual liberation, but instruments to attain it. I think that is why we exert a control over our body as humans and are not controlled by the cravings of our senses and organs like the animals. I we imagine a wagon being drawn by ten horses, which are the senses and organs. It can go wherever the horses please, but the occupants would never get to where they wanted to go unless they picked up the reins which is the mind. The reins help us to get control of the animals within and gives direction in this world. Our desires are the horses; the reins are the mind so the occupant of the wagon has to be the soul the Tao within. This is where the ‘pure I' consciousness is important because it is the mind's link to the Tao. I use to think I was a body with consciousness, but now I realize that I am consciousness with a body, that we are all at one with the Tao. Returning to the illustration of the horses drawing the cart. The horses are the glands, instincts, organs and desires. The reins controlling the horses are the five layers of the mind, and the person holding the reins is the will, our spirit. Now, the person whom is the silent passenger observing all the actions is the soul our great Mother the Tao. If our attention is given to the soul who is the tranquil passenger, the horses, occupants and everything on the ride can start to enjoy the trip; otherwise, they will be running all over the country side endlessly following their desires from one object to another. Going beyond all the systems good or bad, right or wrong, that support our ideas is liberating and opens us to receive the highest bliss available in the Tao. This attention to the soul or communion with the Mother, The Tao, Our Father in Christianity is unity and pure bliss. We have so much to be thankful for especially if we have nothing to run after. soma, Would there be some point where "we" need to let go of the reins? (This is offered in the spirit of my "Acceptance and Vulnerability" thread) Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 soma, During my "theravada days" there were various texts from the Theravada Canon that I knew by heart. Often I ran through them and sought to allow their import to seep into the duller regions of my mind - and who knows,with luck, even my practice! Your post on Chapter 26 once again jogged the old memory cells. My "heart" had long since allowed the words of the text to fall away, so I have looked them up. 'Straight' is the name that Road is called,and 'Free From Fear' the Quarter whither thou art bound. Thy Chariot is the 'Silent Runner' named, With Wheels of Righteous Effort fitted well. Conscience the Leaning Board; the Drapery Is Heedfulness; the Driver is the Norm, I say, and Right Views, they that run before. And be it woman, be it man for whom Such chariot doth wait, by that same car Into Nibbana's presence shall they come. I understand the word "norm" is now known more commonly as the Middle Way (its a very old translation by one of the early Western Buddhist pioneers. The Middle Way.............not a third position that lies between two extremes but a no-position that supercedes both (Thomas Merton's understanding from his Asian Journal) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted November 29, 2009 Author Share Posted November 29, 2009 (snip) I understand the word "norm" is now known more commonly as the Middle Way (its a very old translation by one of the early Western Buddhist pioneers. The Middle Way.............not a third position that lies between two extremes but a no-position that supercedes both (Thomas Merton's understanding from his Asian Journal) Tariki, Thanks for that clarification. That is something I find I must remind myself of. No-position, though at times seemingly difficult, seems to me to be a good place to be. Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 I managed a half way house in Hawaii for mentally disturbed. A psychiatrist met with the staff once a month to see if there was any transference. I remember my first week and I told the psychiatrist that I saw no difference between the residents and myself. He said mentally you both can go out there, but you can come back and they can't find their way back. I guess that is finding the middle way and not holding the reins in a tight fisted manner that works. In India the fellow monks told me that the mind was like a monkey's tail, which curls up when let go. They said the control of the mind can keep the tail from curling up so one must be ever vigilant not to let that tail curl up. I have let the tail curl up numerous times and it always hits me in the face bringing back to my senses. To intellectualize this even further I see we are creatures that have the power to control our instincts by our will, but we also have the power to suppress, distort and injure the instinctive animals in us. An animal is never so wild and dangerous as when it is cornered or wounded so I must beware because suppressed instincts can gain control of my mind and even destroy the little progress I have made on the spiritual path. As a modern person I am threatened not only by my uninhibited drives, but also by my repressed instincts, which can do harm to the natural instincts. Therefore, some of the wild horses will have to be tamed while others will have to be healed. I feel this can be done, if I follow the universal commandments of morality in a wholesome way. It seems one can never give up craving and yearning while still alive, but there are certain things that I feel are beautiful and good, I must desire those things and not the things that bring me down. I need to witness the first layer of my mind in the second layer so I can decide what is good and what is bad. This practice I feel leads me to the higher layers of the mind that listen to who I really am, the soul riding and witnessing next to my mind on the chariot. The soul never had the reins, it only witnesses and enjoys the trip. I hope my mind picks the middle path as the extremes seem too bumpy of a ride. My mind has been good to me, when listening in silence. I feel in that silence God speaks and guides in a wholesome way. We have seen in many religions the fundamentalist who don't listen. Suicide bombers, KKK, and other extremist who have closed their minds and hearts in the name of religion. They have left the middle path and are having a hard time finding their way back. May they see the light before hitting any of the walls that they have built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivanna Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Chapter 26 emphasizes gravity and solidity --about staying calm, centered and grounded, maintaining a sense of roots wherever we go, not being trivial or reckless. Interestingly, many translations include a verse on keeping the baggage wagon close by, and not being caught up in natural beauty--staying connected to one’s goods or provisions, turning away from “appealing views, sublime scenery, gorgeous sights” etc. I guess this adds to the idea of responsibility and sense of purpose. Since this one focuses on traveling, and political rulership, I was reminded of some of Obama’s trips and speeches -- about the US entering a new era of engagement with the world based on mutual interests and respect, rather than imposing our solutions on other countries in an imperialistic way (how easily presidents can get sidetracked from this goal). Mitchell’s only note is on without leaving home- “She never loses touch with who she really is; in the midst of joy or anger or sorrow she remains imperturbable.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 Karen, Perhaps this is the "middle way" that tariki sometimes speaks of. I guess one can overvalue beauty also. Or possibly one can even get caught up seeking 'good' and become uncentered? Seeking or valuing neither more than the other, perhaps one will stay centered? yes/no ? Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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