rivanna Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Joseph, <I guess one can overvalue beauty also.> Well, it’s true in this chapter, talking about leaders focusing on their job-- then the next chapter points to the artist’s work: “A good artist lets his intuition lead him wherever it wants.” <one can even get caught up seeking 'good' and become uncentered> I’d agree if “seeking good” means imposing our values on others. It should be more like staying open to grace. The good and the beautiful are not opposites-- Dostoevsky said “Beauty will save the world.” If you’re referring to politics, I’m to the left of middle on most issues. For me, a passion for poetry goes hand in hand with being a liberal peace loving democrat. I respect the fact that it isn’t true for everyone who loves the Tao, progressive Christianity, or creative writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 Chapter 27 now open for comments ...... This seems to me a very excellent chapter. A good traveler has no fixed plans and is not intent upon arriving. A good artist lets his intuition lead him wherever it wants. A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is. Thus the Master is available to all people and doesn't reject anyone. He is ready to use all situations and doesn't waste anything. This is called embodying the light. What is a good man but a bad man's teacher? What is a bad man but a good man's job? If you don't understand this, you will get lost, however intelligent you are. It is the great secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivanna Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Mitchell’s note - “This is one of the most important chapters in the Tao Te Ching. First stanza: I have been very free here, because the central point – openness to reality, openheartedness – needs to be made as clearly as possible. available to all people: Because he is not attached to his own ideas. you will get lost: in moral judgments. The tree of knowledge of good and evil is the tree of death.” This one covers a lot. The first part focuses on skill and discernment, using things carefully and effectively. The second part says the sage doesn’t reject or abandon people, or pass up opportunities to serve others. The third part points out the mutual dependence of opposite types of people. It almost seems like humans are seen as just another object or natural resource – an impersonal, practical approach to interaction, whether as the giver or recipient. The idea of benevolence is presented as simple common sense, not wasting material. A refreshing alternative to biblical language. Having said that, the idea of not wasting reminded me of a passage from E. Stanley Jones: “Jesus said we are not to escape trouble, nor merely bear it, but use it...admit suffering into the purpose of our lives, and make it contribute to higher ends. Christianity is the only religion that throws nothing away, including pain and despair. The gospel is always ‘in spite of:’ the emphasis is not on the rewards of heaven, but on producing joy out of conditions here and now." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 rivanna thank you for this passage. "Having said that, the idea of not wasting reminded me of a passage from E. Stanley Jones: “Jesus said we are not to escape trouble, nor merely bear it, but use it...admit suffering into the purpose of our lives, and make it contribute to higher ends. Christianity is the only religion that throws nothing away, including pain and despair. The gospel is always ‘in spite of:’ the emphasis is not on the rewards of heaven, but on producing joy out of conditions here and now." Ch 27 Therefore the sage takes care of all men And abandons no one. He takes care of all things And abandons nothing. This is called "following the light." Matt 5: 14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. The light seems to transform as it forgives and accepts all who are in the present. A good example is Jesus who brings light to the meek, to the lowly in heart, and to the broken as he heals and restores the needy to their true nature. It is to the arrogant, the religiously crusty aristocrats to whom Jesus lays demands harshly. He is harsh in his teaching to the arrogant because he knows that they have lost the ability for an authentic mystical experience with their paltry, pompous prayers, actions and mentality. He can bring them to the door of awareness, but I feel he knows they won’t be able to open it until they cultivate love and the still point that love creates. We can’t open the door because of our attachment to images, words, and ideas that support our beliefs. We seem to fear the emptiness that we think lies beyond the door, beyond the surface of things so we grasp these things and ideas, afraid of being immersed in a Reality that our mind can’t comprehend. The guiding light is shinning under, on top of and around the door, but we are to attached and afraid to open it. It has no lock. There is no doctrine, religion, teaching or technique that opens the door. I feel there is not even a door, we just need the to walk through it with love. I feel Jesus knows that we need to know the natural self before we can walk through the portal and know the supernatural self. I think that is why he taught love so we could go beyond the motions of religion. I feel he knows people call themselves religious, but do not acknowledge God, pure love, or God’s pure consciousness, the Tao. In this case even some Christians are pagans as referred to in line 47 below. Matt 5: 43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted December 17, 2009 Author Share Posted December 17, 2009 Chapter 28 now open for comments ................................ Know the male, yet keep to the female: receive the world in your arms. If you receive the world, the Tao will never leave you and you will be like a little child. Know the white, yet keep to the black: be a pattern for the world. If you are a pattern for the world, the Tao will be strong inside you and there will be nothing you can't do. Know the personal, yet keep to the impersonal: accept the world as it is. If you accept the world, the Tao will be luminous inside you and you will return to your primal self. The world is formed from the void, like utensils from a block of wood. The Master knows the utensils, yet keeps to the the block: thus she can use all things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 This Chapter of verses seem very abstract to me. The last stance... The world is formed from the void, like utensils from a block of wood. The Master knows the utensils, yet keeps to the the block: thus she can use all things. confirms that all the world is created from source and that though the world is known and lived in and used daily, it is the source where one must focus on so one is to be able to use all things that are in the world. The other versus seem to point abstractly to knowing both sides of a coin yet keeping to that which is most important and from which all things come. Merry Xmas all.... perhaps this chapter will speak to others differently. Love in Christ, Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 And Merry Xmas to you Joseph. And I'll seek to get my head into this Chapter after the festivities! Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Know the white,yet keep to the black: be a pattern for the world. If you are a pattern for the world, the Tao will be strong inside you and there will be nothing you can't do. Know the personal, yet keep to the impersonal: accept the world as it is. If you accept the world, the Tao will be luminous inside you and you will return to your primal self. For businessmen the main purpose of life might be to be efficient and profitable while for the working man it could be to bring home enough money to survive, but the real purpose in life is to attain a consciousness where we are happy in just being alive. How can we stand the tension of feeling happy in just being alive, knowing that we are just earthly mammals while at the same time considering we are one with the whole universe? If we do feel ourselves to be a part of something much greater, how can we keep our feet on the ground? It is very difficult to keep these inner opposites united without going from one extreme into another extreme. We have to work and earn an honest living, and we have to be warm-hearted to our family and friends. We also have to deal with others in the commercial world where jostling and shoving are the rules, but in all these experiences there is an inner life of peaceful enjoyment. This impersonal consciousness, which is referred to as the Tao pervades the body and the mind and can be the center for our relationships in this world where significant realities are interwoven in a pattern. I like to refer to the Tao as God the Father or pure consciousness to which I feel Jesus consciously talked and from which he received an explicit reply. I feel he could discriminate where the Being of God began and where his own being ceased to be so he formed a pattern and the Tao was luminous inside him. I think he found God and the Kingdom of Heaven within himself by immersing himself below the material surface of creation and finding its cause. This Cause, the primal self, he called God or God the Father Almighty. The pattern of duality in unity and unity in duality continues infinitely with the finite being in the in-finite and the infinite in the finite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted January 7, 2010 Author Share Posted January 7, 2010 Chapter 29 now open for discussion ... Do you want to improve the world? I don't think it can be done. The world is sacred. It can't be improved. If you tamper with it, you'll ruin it. If you treat it like an object, you'll lose it. There is a time for being ahead, a time for being behind; a time for being in motion, a time for being at rest; a time for being vigorous, a time for being exhausted; a time for being safe, a time for being in danger. The Master sees things as they are, without trying to control them. She lets them go their own way, and resides at the center of the circle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivanna Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 Here are Mitchells notes on Chapter 29-- Do you want to improve the world Ramana Maharshi said, Wanting to reform the world without discovering ones true self is like trying to cover the world with leather to avoid the pain of walking on stones and thorns. It is much simpler to wear shoes. [love that analogy!] It cant be improved - This is the Sabbath mind, as in the first chapter of Genesis: when God, from a state of perfect repose, looks at the world and says, Behold it is very good. Actually this is the greatest possible improvement [finding peace in ones heart]. The passage on time is certainly reminiscent of the verses in Ecclesiastes perhaps Mitchells translation echoed that on purpose. Ive been avoiding this thread lately because Im conflicted over this basic tenet of the Tao-- just not cut out to be a Buddhist-- yet I agree with Thomas Merton that Christian culture needs oriental wisdom. Interestingly, he says the Tao is basically not a manual for hermits but a treatise on government, war and peace - a classic that our leaders might be expected to read. Another sentence of Mertons links the Tao to the gospel, in a way that shows cognition and emotion are inseparable: The whole idea of compassion is based on a keen awareness of the interdependence of all living beings, which are all part of one another, and all involved in one another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 AHHHH! Confucious, he say, when wise man wishes to tread softly he does not carpet the earth! It seems as within, so without. Just as , when we cease to "meddle" with ourselves - in pure acceptance - some sort of transformation follows, so I suppose with the world. I don't think the idea is simply "well, it ain't gonna get any better so don't even try". "No working is true working" as we say in the Pure Land! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted January 9, 2010 Author Share Posted January 9, 2010 Karen, Perhaps it is good to be a little conflicted? We then arrive at a point of "i don't know' which in my experience, when we are at ease with it, as Tolle would say, "not knowing", brings us beyond mind because it cannot continue concluding and interpreting. There we find a deeper non-conceptual knowing without thought. I like this chapter and fully agree with the words you quoted of Ramana. Until one finds Self, one is stumbling in the dark trying to fix something that is IMO not broken, This Chapter especially relates to Ecclesiastics. Yes? Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 This Chapter especially relates to Ecclesiastics. Yes? Joseph Joseph, Is this some Oriental thinker I havent heard of? Whatever, I did think some of the verse seemed to relate to Ecclesiastes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted January 10, 2010 Author Share Posted January 10, 2010 Joseph, Is this some Oriental thinker I havent heard of? Whatever, I did think some of the verse seemed to relate to Ecclesiastes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 I feel this chapter is taking us from Trust to Faith. I feel Trust and Faith are holding hands, but they are different in that Trust is coming from the head, logically telling us that everything will turn out in the long run, while Faith on the spiritual level gives us a calm feeling because we know it will or has already happened in infinity. It is nice when they walk together because a calm easy feeling is emitted. If one only has one it seems an unbalance occurs that makes it difficult to go forward. For example, I feel many trust that they have a religion that represents the central principle of God, but their actions seem to show us that they may not have the faith that it represents God. It shows in their actions of holding back from being completely enthusiastic about Love, or coming closer to their God. I don’t think this is a fun place to be and is not productive because there is not a total submission to Spirit or Soul. If there were a total submission to God’s will, there would be eagerness to know God in all His aspects. There would be no time to play my religion is “better or best” game. I think the individuals who play this have confused Trust and Faith. They think their Trust is Faith. Logically, we seem to tell ourselves that we should play it safe and keep with the ideas we have because deep down we do not trust other concepts or ourselves. Following a spiritual path is difficult because of Trust and Faith. We may have faith in God and that all things are united, but not trust that people are ready to hear it or the world is ready for it with all the strife. We may believe God is talking to us in different ways, but then question these intuitions as weird spirit voices. I feel we may trust we are on the right path, but not believe it, if we think others are on the wrong path. I feel to do great spiritual work we need to believe and trust in what we are doing. This is reflected in that we also feel others are doing exactly what they are suppose to be doing at this time. To connect Trust and Faith, I feel we have to reconnect with our faith so we need to take time to pray, meditate, listen to music, read, write, daydream, build sandcastles or whatever to connect to the Spirit within. Our deep spiritual faith will reconnect with Trust. If we lack faith then we need to argue, sing, talk, and listen to our God, which is the same God as others so there is no need to argue with other people. If we don’t have faith then our work is not spiritual. We need people to give their spiritual gifts and people need to share their spirit so we need to encourage all faiths to express their love and devotion. I feel this will get rid of religious terrorism, suicide bombers and condemning of others. Having said all this I feel the people in this thread are on a much deeper level than what I just expressed. It comes across in the posts that the authors are thoughtful of their souls and see this as a cure for the world and the worldliness of our hearts. Trust in spirit allows one to love and easily laugh. This trust trains our minds to overlook the little senseless, physical actions of the time to remember where our souls are already residing in the center of the circle. Jesus also warned us of distrust and the follow-up, physical actions that would distract our minds away from the peace in the center of the Spirit. The soul seems to be the witness in the world just letting things be. It is immune from material laws knowing a physical action will fail to produce a spiritual thing. Reawakening to our soul we live and have being in the world, but are not of it. The soul leaves no footsteps. Matt6:26 "Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? We dream we are on a journey, but we are in bed at home so our spiritual journey has no distance, but is only an awakening to our home in eternal peace. Peace is a condition of the mind with Truth and Faith holding hands and walking together through the test of motion, rest, danger, exhaustion and being prosperous. I feel this chapter is telling us that if we find peace in the lesson that is planned for us at a specific time may it be rest or exhaustion then we will experience the attribute of eternal gentleness. I feel when we finally open our eyes from our dream and spiritual journey, we realize that we need nothing because everything we need is already provide for us even hardship is a need provided free of charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 soma, thank you so much for your last post, there was much I recognised there, and much for further reflection. I'm not into back slapping and telling myself how far I've come and words like those on this thread are on a deeper level than what has here been expressed are not good for my ego, and I run a mile! Yet in a way I do need the encouragment. I've listened for far to long to other voices, and even feared them. Yet the hideous consequences of their "voice" speak of things in direct contradiction to the mercy, grace and love that the divine has, I believe, chosen to reveal to my heart over so many years. It is words like your own that offer encouragement, and I truly appreciate them, and I thank you. Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 Derek, Thank you. I feel we are brothers on a Quest and it takes a tremendous amount of sensitivity to hear and see the inner voice of Truth, which is constantly proclaiming the unity of God and man. Some are afraid of the inner seeing or hearing and deny that it exist that is why all invisible principles are theoretical because we cannot examine them with our physical senses. We cannot weight or measure them, but that does not mean that they are not universal inspirations. The Truth is in the inner experience of Peace and Bliss. In your post I sense the courage, determination, patience, love, kindness and careful attention to thoughts and motives that it takes to enter the inner altar of our human nature. Your post are deep in Buddhist thought and Christianity. One can't see the connections unless one is aware of the God that unfolds in the depth of our being. It is not only with the cruder forms of life that we are linked, as human beings, we are moving together with other spiritual beings in a long continuous ascent and are not in ourselves a finality. Where animal life consummates humankind starts, and when humanity concludes divinity starts. When divinity is activated, our faith is detached from earth and elevated to the higher realms of life. This can be found in Christ's words, "My kingdom is not of this world", also in the phrase, "Keep your treasure where no man can take it." Above and beyond our basic drives lies our inner psychic reality manifesting a living world that artist can only try to express in their creative endeavors. These spiritual experiences represent the mystical experience that is beyond the mind and body experience and merges all our hopes and dreams into one final climax. The Tao in this chapter takes me to this place. Salutations to the Divinity within you. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted January 25, 2010 Author Share Posted January 25, 2010 Chapter 30 now open for discussion....... Whoever relies on the Tao in governing men doesn't try to force issues or defeat enemies by force of arms. For every force there is a counterforce. Violence, even well intentioned, always rebounds upon oneself. The Master does his job and then stops. He understands that the universe is forever out of control, and that trying to dominate events goes against the current of the Tao. Because he believes in himself, he doesn't try to convince others. Because he is content with himself, he doesn't need others' approval. Because he accepts himself, the whole world accepts him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 I do have a copy of Stephen Mitchell's translation, and have read it. When I saw the line "is forever out of control" it just seemed a bit out of kilter, at least to me. I looked up the same chapter in John Wu's translation and looked for the same line, but can't really find it as such. Here is Wu's translation of Chapter 30..... He who knows how to guide a ruler in the path of Tao Does not try to override the world with force of arms. It is in the nature of a military weapon to turn against its wielder. Wherever armies are stationed; thorny bushes grow. After a great war, bad years invariably follow. What you want is to protect efficiently your own state, But not to aim at self-aggrandisement. After you have attained your purpose, You must not parade your success, You must not boast of your ability, You must not feel proud, You must rather regret that you had not been able to prevent the war. You must never think of conquering others by force. For to be over-developed is to hasten decay, And this is against Tao, And what is against Tao will soon cease to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted January 27, 2010 Author Share Posted January 27, 2010 I do have a copy of Stephen Mitchell's translation, and have read it. When I saw the line "is forever out of control" it just seemed a bit out of kilter, at least to me. I looked up the same chapter in John Wu's translation and looked for the same line, but can't really find it as such. Here is Wu's translation of Chapter 30..... (snip) Tariki, It seems to me, and in my view, it was meant to say that "He understands that the universe is forever out of (his individual) control" That's why he doesn't try to dominate it because to do so in not in line with the Tao which is the wisdom encompassing all. Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 He who knows how to guide a ruler in the path of Tao Does not try to override the world with force of arms. It is in the nature of a military weapon to turn against its wielder. Every force has a counter force so force always rebounds on itself. Intimidation provokes and increases defensiveness which only escalates the engagement. Escalating emotions, engagements or other actions only brings bad after effects. I think the lesson the Tao is teaching here is when confronted with a situation react in a reflective mind and not emotionally. This brings a better odds at seeing things as they are and not as a threat. The deeper and wider the perspective the less chance to over-react. This seems to come with age and the continuous experience of being dagged down by our emotional instincts. The chaos narrows our view and we take sides losing our contact with the true nature of reality. Jesus said it this way, "You reap what you sow." Wherever armies are stationed; thorny bushes grow. After a great war, bad years invariably follow. What you want is to protect efficiently your own state, But not to aim at self-aggrandisement. After you have attained your purpose, You must not parade your success, You must not boast of your ability, You must not feel proud, You must rather regret that you had not been able to prevent the war. You must never think of conquering others by force. For to be over-developed is to hasten decay, And this is against Tao, And what is against Tao will soon cease to be. Arrogance is compensation for a sense of weakness. Boasting is ammunition shot from the gun of inadequacy. Crusades require energy so as we age we learn the value of energy and don't want to waste it more than necessary. Pride is a waste of energy and increases life's stress so beneath pride and arrogance disaster crouches. The most effective path is to adopt a simple life that means sacrificing the stimulation of fantasies for the awareness of the moment. Proverbs 16:18-19 (New International Version) 18 Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. 19 Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud. 1 Corinthians 3:18 (New International Version) 18Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted February 7, 2010 Author Share Posted February 7, 2010 Chapter 31 now open for dialog/discussion ...... Weapons are the tools of violence; all decent men detest them. Weapons are the tools of fear; a decent man will avoid them except in the direst necessity and, if compelled, will use them only with the utmost restraint. Peace is his highest value. If the peace has been shattered, how can he be content? His enemies are not demons, but human beings like himself. He doesn't wish them personal harm. Nor does he rejoice in victory. How could he rejoice in victory and delight in the slaughter of men? He enters a battle gravely, with sorrow and with great compassion, as if he were attending a funeral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted February 8, 2010 Author Share Posted February 8, 2010 "His enemies are not demons, but human beings like himself." This seems to me to be the heart of the matter. It seems to me that when one gains an understanding of 'conditioning' (evolution of consciousness) and who or what we think we are versus who we really are, everything takes on a different light. Peace becomes more than an ideal. Just one view, Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 "His enemies are not demons, but human beings like himself." This seems to me to be the heart of the matter. It seems to me that when one gains an understanding of 'conditioning' (evolution of consciousness) and who or what we think we are versus who we really are, everything takes on a different light. Peace becomes more than an ideal. Just one view, Joseph Joseph, Pleased that you to have seen the two lines that I myself have pulled out as being the core. Since first reading this Chapter (which on first reading is very straight forward) the one thing that has continuely come into my mind has been memories of reading the speech by Himmler to his SS staff, made during their time in Poland/Russia, rounding up various communities of Jewish people and "eliminating" them. The gist of his message to his staff was that in as much as they had done their work as a duty, and out of love for, the Fatherland and had not relished the "task", their souls were in fact untouched and remained "pure". Reading the current chapter I was desperate in some way to distant it from such sentiments, and the key is the two lines you quote. Himmler, within his speech, refers to the Jewish people in such a way as to demonise them. Certianly he does not see them as "human beings like himself." Yet it is a close call in many ways, and makes me think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted February 13, 2010 Author Share Posted February 13, 2010 Chapter 32 now open for dialog/discussion ... The Tao can't be perceived. Smaller than an electron, it contains uncountable galaxies. If powerful men and women could remain centered in the Tao, all things would be in harmony. The world would become a paradise. All people would be at peace, and the law would be written in their hearts. When you have names and forms, know that they are provisional. When you have institutions, know where their functions should end. Knowing when to stop, you can avoid any danger. All things end in the Tao as rivers flow into the sea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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