The Tao Te Ching

[Kath]

kath, one thought that came to me was that the Bible is a collection of books written over a long time frame. Maybe to pick out, say, Proverbs.......then one of the Gospels. Let them stand alone? The Tao Te Ching is just one book, written by one man (I assume!.... ), and obviously written from an "enlightened perspective". Just how such a "perspective" makes headway in any human being, or any particular culture, well..........

 

Not-knowing is true knowledge.

 

The way of unknowing, the negative/apophatic way, is a rich one. And has a long tradi -tion in Christian mysticism (Eckhart and St John of the Cross) Also, one of my favorite Buddhist writers, Stephen Batchelor, has written a book "Living with the Devil" wherein he equates the work of the "Devil" (Mara in Buddhist texts) with the various ideas of the "self" that we identify with - and thus freeze ourselves within their rigid definitions. Batchelor argues that a degree of unknowing - the recognition that we are contingent beings within a rich matrix of other contingent events - can lead to creativity, to a greater potential of empathy and communion with others and the world around us.

 

Anyway, for me the "true knowledge" is not a bank of information that we hoard and draw upon as required, but more a spontaneity of "being" (or NON-being!)

 

Hello, Tariki~

 

 

Therefore the Master steps back

so that people won't be confused.

He teaches without a teaching,

so that people will have nothing to learn.

The bible has become the master, and people have become confused. The bible teaches WITH a teaching, so that people will learn from its teachings.

 

This is the contrast of which I speak.

 

You wrote: "kath, one thought that came to me was that the Bible is a collection of books written over a long time frame. Maybe to pick out, say, Proverbs.......then one of the Gospels. Let them stand alone?..."

 

The problem is that they were compiled together to be read as a whole, regardless of it having been a collection written over a long time frame. And that book is promoted as being the word of God, or at least that the books were divinely compiled from the inspiration of God.

 

Yes, if the individual books were published separately on their own merit, that would be fine.

 

Best,

 

Kath

[soma]

If you want to be a great leader,

you must learn to follow the Tao.

Stop trying to control.

Let go of fixed plans and concepts,

and the world will govern itself.

 

The students were walking with a zen master and one student asked him a question. He gave an answer that leaned right. A few 100 feet and another student asked the master a similar question and he answered leaning to the left. Another student said how can you give two opposite answers to almost identical questions. The master said if you are leaning to the left to gain balance you must lean to the right and if you are leaning to the right then you must lean to the left to gain balance.

[tariki]

Hello, Tariki~

 

 

Therefore the Master steps back

so that people won't be confused.

He teaches without a teaching,

so that people will have nothing to learn.

The bible has become the master, and people have become confused. The bible teaches WITH a teaching, so that people will learn from its teachings.

 

This is the contrast of which I speak.

 

You wrote: "kath, one thought that came to me was that the Bible is a collection of books written over a long time frame. Maybe to pick out, say, Proverbs.......then one of the Gospels. Let them stand alone?..."

 

The problem is that they were compiled together to be read as a whole, regardless of it having been a collection written over a long time frame. And that book is promoted as being the word of God, or at least that the books were divinely compiled from the inspiration of God.

 

Yes, if the individual books were published separately on their own merit, that would be fine.

 

Best,

 

Kath

 

kath, I think we have agreement on many points. For me, the most damage has been done since the declaration of sola scriptua by Martin Luther. This seems to have coincided with the developement of a fundamentally rationalist approach to "truth", resulting in various "theologies of salvation" being superimposed upon the Bible. Allegiance to the words and logic of such theologies, rather than the Word (the spirit that gives life), has resulted. I think we could both go on and on about this, but no real point..........

 

All the best

Derek

[JosephM]

Chapter 58 now open for discussion/dialog....

 

If a country is governed with tolerance,

the people are comfortable and honest.

If a country is governed with repression,

the people are depressed and crafty.

 

When the will to power is in charge,

the higher the ideals, the lower the results.

Try to make people happy,

and you lay the groundwork for misery.

Try to make people moral,

and you lay the groundwork for vice.

 

Thus the Master is content

to serve as an example

and not to impose her will.

She is pointed, but doesn't pierce.

Straightforward, but supple.

Radiant, but easy on the eyes.

[Kath]

Chapter 58 now open for discussion/dialog....

 

If a country is governed with tolerance,

the people are comfortable and honest.

If a country is governed with repression,

the people are depressed and crafty.

 

When the will to power is in charge,

the higher the ideals, the lower the results.

Try to make people happy,

and you lay the groundwork for misery.

Try to make people moral,

and you lay the groundwork for vice.

 

Thus the Master is content

to serve as an example

and not to impose her will.

She is pointed, but doesn't pierce.

Straightforward, but supple.

Radiant, but easy on the eyes.

 

Joseph,

 

Here's my take on this.

 

I used to own a fitness club about 20 years ago. I hired one of my members to front the desk and he was a "born again" Christian. Great guy. Such a sweetheart, always up and positive. But the problem was, he evangelized whenevever he worked. People came to work out, not to go to church.

 

So I had a talk with him. I explained that while i absolutely appreciated his zeal for the Lord, I didn't think it was a good idea to push his religious agenda on people who just want to enjoy their workouts. He explained that according to his church's teachings, it was his responsiblitiy to spread the 'good news'. I told him he could do that by example rather than beat them over the head with it.

 

He continued to evangelize.

 

Then, he attended a ministry conference (he wanted to become a minister, which he ultimately did). He was so cool that he came back and told me that he attended a lecture in which he learned exactly what I was trying to tell him. Not to beat people over the head but to show by example.

 

Human nature is to recoil from that which is pushed upon you. People like to think it's their own awareness which brings them to a realization.

 

Kath

[JosephM]

Human nature is to recoil from that which is pushed upon you. People like to think it's their own awareness which brings them to a realization.

 

Kath

 

Thanks Kath,

 

Yes, setting an example also seems to be the most effective teacher.

[Kath]

Thanks Kath,

 

Yes, setting an example also seems to be the most effective teacher.

 

 

Yes, Joseph,

 

"...He teaches without a teaching,

so that people will have nothing to learn...."

 

Kath

[JosephM]

Chapter 59-61 concerning governing a country open for dialog .....

 

59 - For governing a country well

there is nothing better than moderation.

 

The mark of a moderate man

is freedom from his own ideas.

Tolerant like the sky,

all-pervading like sunlight,

firm like a mountain,

supple like a tree in the wind,

he has no destination in view

and makes use of anything

life happens to bring his way.

 

Nothing is impossible for him.

Because he has let go,

he can care for the people's welfare

as a mother cares for her child.

 

60- Governing a large country

is like frying a small fish.

You spoil it with too much poking.

 

Center your country in the Tao

and evil will have no power.

Not that it isn't there,

but you'll be able to step out of its way.

 

Give evil nothing to oppose

and it will disappear by itself.

 

61 - When a country obtains great power,

it becomes like the sea:

all streams run downward into it.

The more powerful it grows,

the greater the need for humility.

Humility means trusting the Tao,

thus never needing to be defensive.

 

A great nation is like a great man:

When he makes a mistake, he realizes it.

Having realized it, he admits it.

Having admitted it, he corrects it.

He considers those who point out his faults

as his most benevolent teachers.

He thinks of his enemy

as the shadow that he himself casts.

 

If a nation is centered in the Tao,

if it nourishes its own people

and doesn't meddle in the affairs of others,

it will be a light to all nations in the world.

 

These 3 chapters seem to me to contain great wisdom in the governing of a country. Obviously not all leaders agree with this wisdom as many might define some of these things as a weakness rather than a strength. It seems to me our experience will prove it one way or the other. Sometimes it seems we learn only through great suffering?

 

Joseph

[JosephM]

The Tao chapter 62 now open for discussion, comments or dialog if any.......

 

The Tao is the center of the universe,

the good man's treasure,

the bad man's refuge.

 

Honors can be bought with fine words,

respect can be won with good deeds;

but the Tao is beyond all value,

and no one can achieve it.

 

Thus, when a new leader is chosen,

don't offer to help him

with your wealth or your expertise.

Offer instead

to teach him about the Tao.

 

Why did the ancient Masters esteem the Tao?

Because, being one with the Tao,

when you seek, you find;

and when you make a mistake, you are forgiven.

That is why everybody loves it.

 

 

Joseph

[JosephM]

Well, as a group we made it to chapter 62 0f 81 and seem to have run out of steam.

 

Anyone interested in commenting on any chapter or chapters from 62 through 81 please do so at your leisure. We have systematically covered 3/4 of the Tao in 20 pages of posts and i will leave it up to any individuals interested that wish to summarize or cover any of the last chapters to do so. Otherwise we will allow the topic to rest as is.

 

Thanks for all your interesting comments and dialog. You have provided an interesting database for researchers or students of the Tao. I believe it was a worthwhile exercise to go this far and hear such a variety of perspectives on another wisdom tradition, at least for me.

 

Thanks again,

Joseph

[tariki]

Well, as a group we made it to chapter 62 0f 81 and seem to have run out of steam.

 

Anyone interested in commenting on any chapter or chapters from 62 through 81 please do so at your leisure. We have systematically covered 3/4 of the Tao in 20 pages of posts and i will leave it up to any individuals interested that wish to summarize or cover any of the last chapters to do so. Otherwise we will allow the topic to rest as is.

 

Thanks for all your interesting comments and dialog. You have provided an interesting database for researchers or students of the Tao. I believe it was a worthwhile exercise to go this far and hear such a variety of perspectives on another wisdom tradition, at least for me.

 

Thanks again,

Joseph

 

So that's the way the thread ends............not with a bang but a whimper. Still, given the initial premise, that the word that can be spoken is not the eternal word, we didn't do too bad...

 

But seriously, its been a good exercise, and hopefully we have all gained in our various ways. It does seem that many chapters are seeking to express the very same thing in different ways, and there are only so many times anyone can respond by saying much the same thing.

 

Thanks

[soma]

We are dissolving into the Tao. Great exercise ............................I enjoyed and benefited from all responses. Thanks