The Tao Te Ching

[JosephM]

(snip)

I was thinking a comparative from a Christian perspective (regarding following the Tao) is that simple assurance that God is in control of his creation and all is as it should be..even when there are appearances to the contrary. An acknowledgement or awareness of unity, wholeness, perfection, on some level.

 

That seems to me to be very profound. Welcome to the Tao thread Marsha and thanks for your contribution.

 

Joseph

[JosephM]

Chapter 49 now open for discussion / dialog....................

 

The Master has no mind of her own.

She works with the mind of the people.

 

She is good to people who are good.

She is also good to people who aren't good.

This is true goodness.

 

She trusts people who are trustworthy.

She also trusts people who aren't trustworthy.

This is true trust.

 

The Master's mind is like space.

People don't understand her.

They look to her and wait.

She treats them like her own children.

 

At first to me this was puzzling but i was reflecting on Marsha's last post and it brought me to parallels in Christianity.

Perhaps someone else beside myself can share their thoughts or provide different translations?

 

Joseph

[Marsha]

I don't know if this is a perfect comparison, but Matthew 5 came to mind.

 

43 You have heard that it was said, Love your neighbor and hate your enemy'. 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

I especially thought the bolded part fit in with the middle two verses of this chapter.

 

Not sure about the first and last. I think westerners sometimes have trouble understanding God as what seems to be described in 49 as "empty space". But, you have to admit there is something perfect about emptiness.

[soma]

Marsha nice job.

[Marsha]

Thanks, soma.

 

I'm really not sure...just kind of throwing things out there that might fit..?

 

I was reading somewhere that there are multiple and varied interpretations of the Tao Te Ching, so I guess there are no hard and fast rules for interpretation.

[tariki]

Nice to see some new posters here.....welcome Marsha. As far as the current chapter is concerned, I have long attained the teaching of line one.....The Master has no mind of her (his) own., though quite how would be for others to gauge....

 

With the Divine as "empty space" - beyond idolatry - Christians are given by grace the Person of Jesus. Being a little on the eastern side of things, I consider the acorn, then the sapling, then the small tree, then the fully grown oak..........That if the acorn had "acorness" as its unchanging essence it could only congeal and die, never moving on. Being "empty" it is able to journey on. For me, this mirrors the divine, Who by being "empty" can be all things to all people. And as my mate Thomas Merton says, the gate of heaven is everywhere.

 

[Marsha]

Nice to see some new posters here.....welcome Marsha.

 

Hi tariki. Nice to meet you! Thanks for the welcome.

 

Being a little on the eastern side of things, I consider the acorn, then the sapling, then the small tree, then the fully grown oak..........That if the acorn had "acorness" as its unchanging essence it could only congeal and die, never moving on. Being "empty" it is able to journey on. For me, this mirrors the divine, Who by being "empty" can be all things to all people. And as my mate Thomas Merton says, the gate of heaven is everywhere.

 

That's good...I like that. If we hang on to who we think we are, we don't leave room for change. That's good.

 

So, what do you think about the two middle verses?

[tariki]

 

 

So, what do you think about the two middle verses?

 

Maybe it always comes back to "emptiness", in as much as "mercy" and "forgiveness" are of time, and in a sense are second best. Second best in as much as a "wrong" has been seen and registered, a judgement made even though eventually overturned. "Emptiness" could be seen to be of eternity, not as endless duration, but as the companion of time, always bringing forth - for those with eyes to see - its reality. Often, alas, I do not have the eyes to see. Often I am full of judgement. I see good and bad, sometimes have trust, then lose it. A cluttered mind, unlike space!

 

There is a commentary of a verse of the Buddhist Dhammapada, by the translator Thomas Cleary. I must have read it ten or so years ago and never understood it, and perhaps do not now. But the verse speaks of avoiding poison, of avoiding all evils. To do so one is advised to avoid the road down which they lurk!

 

Cleary quotes a Zen master, Dogen, who said........"evils are manifest as a continuum of being ever not done.........at precisely such a time, as the beginning, middle, and end manifest as evils not done, evils are not born from conditions, they are only not done, evils do not perish through conditions, they are only not done." This, says Dogen, is to "settle it finally".

 

I understand this now as saying - as I indicated at the beginning - that in a sense "mercy" and forgiveness" are second best. Sometimes, reflecting, I do think of a past moment, when a word was said by another, or an act was done, and in my reflection I suddenly recognise that a "hurt" was intended but not registered at the time - and not because of misunderstanding of intent, but just not registered.

 

Anyway, having perhaps muddied the waters..... ..........I see the Tao Te Ching verses as pointing to the "mind of the divine" which always exists in "true trust" and "true goodness", being like "space". Perhaps this is the main difference between "eastern" ways and Christian. Within Christianity Time and its ways are more concrete, history - personal and social - more relevant and "real". Mercy and forgiveness - within time - are part and parcel of the life and work of Jesus Christ, being born in Time.

 

Hopefully I'm not getting too obscure here, but it is with the Mahayana Buddhist "view" (born of experience/mediative insight rather than speculation) that samsara IS nirvana that the bridge between "east" and "west" can be crossed. We must of necessity live in one until we live in the other, and things get hazy at times, and we all have to work it out at our own pace, according to our own uniqueness.

 

Well, you DID ask............

 

All the best

Derek

[Marsha]

Thanks Derek..

 

You're right, a lot of that went swooshing right over my head! lol

 

I see the Tao Te Ching verses as pointing to the "mind of the divine" which always exists in "true trust" and "true goodness",

 

That much, I understand (as much as a human mind can understand perfection). That's what I saw in those middle verses....that God (the Higher Power/Higher Awareness..however you want to describe it) always responds with perfect goodness, even when the receiver of that goodness is...not good.

 

Hopefully I'm not getting too obscure here, but it is with the Mahayana Buddhist "view" (born of experience/mediative insight rather than speculation) that samsara IS nirvana that the bridge between "east" and "west" can be crossed. We must of necessity live in one until we live in the other, and things get hazy at times, and we all have to work it out at our own pace, according to our own uniqueness.

 

Only have a very vague notion of what you're speaking of here. It's been along time since I've studied eastern religions.

 

Well, you DID ask............

 

lol...yes, I did!

 

And, thank you, for that lovely response, even if I didn't completely understand!

[rivanna]

Marsha, you had mentioned other translations – there’s a sentence by sentence comparison here

 

http://wayist.org/ttc%20compared/indexchp.htm

 

and an author by author comparison on this site, if you scroll down to the part on the Tao

 

http://www.terebess.hu/english/tao.html

 

The middle verses do seem quite similar in message to what Jesus (and Paul) teach – as your quote pointed out.

 

The last line about the sage treating people as beloved children, could be seen as parallel to Luke 13:34 where Jesus says of Jerusalem, “how often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings.” Some versions reverse this so the sage resembles a child in relation to others –or as in Witter Bynner’s text – “I feel the heart-beats of others Above my own If I am enough of a father, Enough of a son.”

It’s always interesting to see the variety of interpretations.

[tariki]

a lot of that went swooshing right over my head! lol

 

 

Fortunately, most of it passes straight through mine.......

[JosephM]

Chapter 50 now open for discussion/dialog....

 

The Master gives himself up

to whatever the moment brings.

He knows that he is going to die,

and her has nothing left to hold on to:

no illusions in his mind,

no resistances in his body.

He doesn't think about his actions;

they flow from the core of his being.

He holds nothing back from life;

therefore he is ready for death,

as a man is ready for sleep

after a good day's work.

 

 

Joseph

[tariki]

Reading through the chapter I thought back to the words of Marsha, about the....

 

simple assurance that God is in control of his creation and all is as it should be..even when there are appearances to the contrary.

 

It would be this sort of trust/faith that can potentially bring about in our mind/hearts the reality of the opening lines.....

 

The Master gives himself up

to whatever the moment brings.

 

Or, as we say in the Pure Land, no working is true working, when the mind/heart rests beyond any calculation . This has nothing whatsover to do with a state of inertia, but presupposes a spontaneous response to each situation encountered, a response born of compassion/love/wisdom - where the "law" has been written on the heart, not on tablets of stone.

[Marsha]

I like that, Derek, about trust and faith.

 

Another thing that came to mind, while reading this one, was the idea of trying to hold onto things (even our time). I know that I have a problem with being spontaneous, sometimes. I can be stingy with my time (like it's really MINE! LOL). I am easily thrown out of kilter, if things don't go as I have planned.

 

Also, the whole idea of ownership, even of our very lives. Trying to hold onto things (like money and possessions) and even life itself, in this dimension. For me, it is, sometimes, a lack of true faith in God's creation and plan. It's like trying to dam up the water (to save it), but eventually that dam is going to break, because the water naturally wants/needs to flow.

 

Anyone ever seen "Out of Africa"...there is a scene in there about the woman building a dam, which eventually breaks during the monsoons. There is a lot of symbolism in that movie, about ownership vs the natural flow of things. It's one of my all time favorite movies.

[Marsha]

Marsha, you had mentioned other translations – there’s a sentence by sentence comparison here

 

http://wayist.org/ttc%20compared/indexchp.htm

 

and an author by author comparison on this site, if you scroll down to the part on the Tao

 

http://www.terebess.hu/english/tao.html

 

The middle verses do seem quite similar in message to what Jesus (and Paul) teach – as your quote pointed out.

 

The last line about the sage treating people as beloved children, could be seen as parallel to Luke 13:34 where Jesus says of Jerusalem, “how often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings.” Some versions reverse this so the sage resembles a child in relation to others –or as in Witter Bynner’s text – “I feel the heart-beats of others Above my own If I am enough of a father, Enough of a son.”

It’s always interesting to see the variety of interpretations.

 

Rivanna, thank you so much for the links! I will have a look at those. The side by side sounds especially interesting.

 

Good observation about that last line and Luke 13:34.

 

I think it's interesting that these verses can have several interpretations. It just means we can get several layers of knowledge from them. Biblical scholars (most of them) are always looking for just the "right" interpretation of a particular verse and there is so much emphasis on right or wrong interpretations (debates and big feuds and schisms, even, over such things). Kind of nice to have the freedom to say there is no black and white, right or wrong interpretation.

[soma]

It seems in our small world Christ enters and leaves as we try to grasp Our Lord in a tight fist of a hand, but when we open the mind to the vast, deep and limitless Christ mind, then we relax and rest in a state of peace. We let go and “Let Thy Will be Done”. We are no longer tied or grasping a human predicament. We are no longer poking about our interior with a flashlight, but opening the blinds, windows and doors of our Soul to the present moment of God. We no longer seek God because we know he is always present so we seek the barriers that separate us from That Glorious Presence. We die and open ourselves to the mind of Christ.

[Marsha]

It seems in our small world Christ enters and leaves as we try to grasp Our Lord in a tight fist of a hand, but when we open the mind to the vast, deep and limitless Christ mind, then we relax and rest in a state of peace. We let go and “Let Thy Will be Done”. We are no longer tied or grasping a human predicament. We are no longer poking about our interior with a flashlight, but opening the blinds, windows and doors of our Soul to the present moment of God. We no longer seek God because we know he is always present so we seek the barriers that separate us from That Glorious Presence. We die and open ourselves to the mind of Christ.

 

That was beautiful, soma.

[rivanna]

Mitchell’s note on chapter 50 is unusual in that it explains why his translation is so different from others - [which it really is – and they differ widely from each other]

 

"There are a number of passages in the Tao Te Ching where a much narrower consciousness is at work than in the rest of the book. These passages may be interpolations – several show a concern with immortality, as the later, magical Taoism did --or perhaps the old fellow had indigestion on the day he wrote them. But since my job was to recreate the essential mind of Lao Tzu, I could not in good conscience include them in this version. What I have done instead is to make improvisations on the themes, always taking care to remain within the consciousness and language of the main body of the text. For those who are curious I have included literal translations in these notes. The text for this chapter reads:

 

Coming in is life; going out is death. Three in ten are companions of life; three in ten are companions of death. And three in ten are moving from life to the place of death. Why is this ? Because they live life too intensely. I have heard that he who knows how to preserve his life meets neither rhinoceros nor tiger when he travels by land, and is untouched by the sword when he enters a battle. The rhinoceros finds no place in him to drive its horn; the tiger finds no place in him to sink its claws; the soldier finds no place in him to thrust his sword. Why is this? because in him there is no place of death.

 

he has nothing left: Zen master Seung Sahn’s comment:

Coming in empty handed, going out emptyhanded. What is your original face? The moon is shining everywhere."

------

 

Seems like the point Mitchell wanted to revise was the suggestion of immortality in that last part – instead he refers to death as a welcome sleep after life.

 

The idea of letting go of one’s life, and of being unafraid of death – as opposed to anxiously grasping -- resonates in many parts of the bible, NT especially.

 

I like the idea of actions flowing from the core of our being.

[JosephM]

Chapter 51 now open for dialog/discussion.....

 

 

Every being in the universe

is an expression of the Tao.

It springs into existence,

unconscious, perfect, free,

takes on a physical body,

lets circumstances complete it.

That is why every being

spontaneously honors the Tao.

 

The Tao gives birth to all beings,

nourishes them, maintains them,

cares for them, comforts them, protects them,

takes them back to itself,

creating without possessing,

acting without expecting,

guiding without interfering.

That is why love of the Tao

is in the very nature of things.

 

 

 

Personally, I find these passages very beautiful and progressive. To me it puts together a lot of passages that can be found even within Christianity and makes sense of them. What do you think?

 

Joseph

[Marsha]

That is absolutely beautiful and I love it, but not sure it reflects what most Christians focus on, in the Bible. I'm sure there are parallels in the Bible, but my conservative Christian experience has me, seeing in the Bible, the opposite of what the beginning verses of that chapter say.

 

Man was created in God's image, but he quickly turned and became something almost opposite of God. Soon after the creation of Adam and Eve, born with a sinful nature that wants nothing to do with God (unless he intervenes and turns our head).

 

I would definitely like to refocus and see the parallels with the Bible.

[soma]

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth... God saw all that he had made, and it was very good." (Genesis 1:1, 31)

 

"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." (John 1:3)

 

"To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it." (Deuteronomy 10:14)

 

"The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.... The LORD is faithful to all his promises and loving toward all he has made." (Psalm 145:9, 13; cf. Psalm 145:17)

 

"He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:17)

 

"Ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds of the air, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish of the sea inform you. Which of these does not know that the hand of the Lord has done this? In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind." (Job 12:7-10)

 

"Let the heavens rejoice, let the earth be glad, let the sea resound, and all that is in it; let the fields be jubilant, and everything in them. Then all the trees of the forest will sing for joy; they will sing before the Lord." (Psalm 96:11-13)

 

"Praise the Lord from the earth, you great sea creatures and all ocean depths, lightning and hail, snow and clouds, stormy winds that do his bidding, you mountains and all hills, fruit trees and all cedars, wild animals and all cattle, small creatures and flying birds." (Psalm 148:7-10)

 

 

These quotes tell me we are where we are meant to be at this time in our spiritual evolution. We are dancing with our Lord in our problems and joys as we move closer to God and our Soul. He is there and here with us every step of the way. When I look back, I see it was God who put me in every situation good and bad only so I could grow closer to the most Sacred Heart. In difficult times he places his hands under our feet to shelter us from any harm. May we awaken to the Glory of Love, Diversity, and Our Lord,s presence in everything good and bad.

[Marsha]

Thank you, Soma. Well done.

 

Adding to that:

 

"But I am like an olive tree flourishing in the house of God; I trust in God's unfailing love for ever and ever" (Psalm 52:8).

 

"Give thanks to the God of heaven. His love endures forever" (Psalm 136:26).

 

(The Psalms are full of God's love)

 

"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future" (Jeremiah 29:11).

 

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:35-39).

[rivanna]

Nice selections from the bible – they reflect this chapter’s serenity don’t they. Not sure I agree with the idea that “it was God who put me in every situation good and bad…” – for me, God does not determine everything that goes on in our lives, but is present and available to us --

but I agree chapter 51 brings a sense of the ultimate oneness of the universe. Compared to the bible, the Tao presents a less personal, more environmental awareness –seeing ourselves as interelated parts of an organic whole (or as Paul says, members of one body, though he may have meant something more limited).

The stanzas describe a creative principle, not a personal divinity, which is caring and benevolent yet also gives free will to all beings….helping without possessing. It is more abstract, but in the Tao, choosing to imagine the world in a positive, nurturing way, interpreting raw reality with a reassuring perspective, seems very similar to the Christian ideal. (I would say however, that this doesn’t come naturally, spontaneously or unconsciously, to most of us!)

 

Mitchell’s notes on this chapter –

spontaneously honors the Tao: honoring the Tao means respecting the way things are. There is a wonderful Japanese story from Roshi which portrays this attitude:

 

A hundred and fifty years ago there lived a woman named Sono, whose devotion and purity of heart were known far and wide. One day a fellow Buddhist, having made a long trip to see her, asked, What can I do to put my heart at rest? She said, Every morning and evening, and whenever anything happens to you, keep on saying “Thanks for everything. I have no complaint whatsoever.” The man did as he was instructed for an entire year, but his heart was still not at peace. He returned to Sono, crestfallen. “I’ve said your prayer over and over, and yet nothing in my life has changed; I’m still the same selfish person as before. What should I do now?” Sono immediately answered, “Thanks for everything. I have no complaint whatsoever.” On hearing these words, the man was able to open his spiritual eye, and returned home with great joy.

 

(I’d be interested to hear what others think of this story, how it connects)

[soma]

Nice story nivanna. It seems internal individual religious experience provides the basis for religious teachings. If one doesn't have the experience it seems to be just hearsay until it is experienced within. When our minds are disturbed things are multiplied and when still it seems multiplicity disappears.

 

I would say however, that this doesn’t come naturally, spontaneously or unconsciously, to most of us!

 

I like this statement. I brings to mind my cultivating the garden to make it fertile for the spiritual experience.

[JosephM]

(snip)

Compared to the bible, the Tao presents a less personal, more environmental awareness –seeing ourselves as interelated parts of an organic whole (or as Paul says, members of one body, though he may have meant something more limited).

The stanzas describe a creative principle, not a personal divinity, which is caring and benevolent yet also gives free will to all beings….helping without possessing. It is more abstract, but in the Tao, choosing to imagine the world in a positive, nurturing way, interpreting raw reality with a reassuring perspective, seems very similar to the Christian ideal. (I would say however, that this doesn't come naturally, spontaneously or unconsciously, to most of us!)

 

Personally i don't think you can get more personal than being an expression of God. Also i think that when the ego is less present, separation seems to disappear and spontaneity becomes more pronounced. Perhaps only we as humans with our incessant need to think and identify with that thinking lose that spontaneity that can only be natural when we truly see what we are. Just my own personal view on your comment

 

 

(snip)

 

(I'd be interested to hear what others think of this story, how it connects)

 

I think when we cease to identify so much with the content of our lives and more with the being experiencing them, those statements given to the man to repeat are seen as true.

 

Joseph