The Tao Te Ching

[tariki]

Personally i don't think you can get more personal than being an expression of God.

 

Yes.....thanks.

 

[JosephM]

Chapter 52 now open for dialog/discussion.....

 

 

In the beginning was the Tao.

All things issue from it;

all things return to it.

 

To find the origin,

trace back the manifestations.

When you recognize the children

and find the mother,

you will be free of sorrow.

 

If you close your mind in judgements

and traffic with desires,

your heart will be troubled.

If you keep your mind from judging

and aren't led by the senses,

your heart will find peace.

 

Seeing into darkness is clarity.

Knowing how to yield is strength.

Use your own light

and return to the source of light.

This is called practicing eternity.

 

 

 

This chapter to me says a lot. What does it say to you?

Joseph

[tariki]

For me the chapter echoes a lot of thoughts about the "fall". Within Christianity there seems to be the "rebellion" against God trend, or - alternatively - the "happy fault" trend. For me the "happy fault" trend slips more easily into what could be seen as the Christian mystical tradition.

 

This seem to lay down a template of:- innocence, then into knowledge (of "good and evil", of distinction), then back to innocence (non-distinction). Back, not as a regression (to the womb!) but more as a "state" of being (or non- being!!) that St Augustine expressed as "Love God and do what you will", and which Buddhism refers to as anabhoga-carya, or "effortlessness" or "no striving" , where "no working is true working". (If anyone finds the Pali reference impressive ( ) it is merely copied from a discourse by D T Suzuki.

 

Again, perhaps the words of T S Eliot express the idea poetically....

 

We shall not cease from exploration

And the end of all our exploring

Will be to arrive where we started

And know the place for the first time.

 

Not quite sure about the "use your own light", maybe others could offer something as clarification? Thinking of my "own" light makes me think of one of the Nazruddin stories, where he is found on all fours under a street lamp, desperately searching for something lost. When asked what he was looking for he said it was his front door key. "Ah, so you dropped it around here did you?" "Oh no" Nazruddin replied, "I actually dropped it a long way over there." "Then why look here?" "Well", says Nazruddin, "there is more light over here!"

 

Anyway, I agree it is a fine chapter.

 

[rivanna]

Mitchell has one note on chapter 52 --

trace back the manifestations – where do you come from?

which perhaps means that we all have the same ultimate root in common.

 

For me, the bible equivalent of this chapter might be the prodigal son/daughter – returning to the source of love -- to “recognize the children” is to perceive how we all pursue worldly matters. When we realize that desire/ambition/hasty impulses don’t bring contentment we go back home.

 

The idea that yielding to force is strength - seems to refer to a way of being submissive which is not a reaction based on fear; but rather as Jesus says, “abide in me” -- in gentleness and insight, restraint. D. C. Lao comments, “going forward does not resolve circumstances. When I go back to holding fast I’m more likely to be patient and let reality unfold.”

 

These verses also remind me of Henri Nouwen -- “when we are listening to the voices of the world, we cannot truly accept ourselves; but when we continue to hear the deep gentle voice that blesses us, saying that we are fully accepted just as we are, then we are free to grow into our truest selves…. we can walk through life with a constant sense of well being and belonging.”

[soma]

In the beginning was the Tao.

All things issue from it;

all things return to it.

 

In the beginning of the Gospel of St. John it says,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehended it not."

 

To find the origin,

trace back the manifestations.

When you recognize the children

and find the mother,

you will be free of sorrow.

 

It seems the Word is the offspring of God The Father, Mother, Tao or pure consciousness from which everything is born. It is qualified consciousness where pure consciousness takes on more and more vibrations or qualities. I suggest that when the first vibration is allowed to impose on the pure consciousness, it gets quality and becomes aware of itself. This is where cosmic mind gets the feeling of existence and the universal ‘pure I' feeling is experienced. This ‘pure I' feeling is composed of all the individual ‘pure I' feelings in the universe because they came from the Word. It is the collective ‘pure I' or the feeling of existence because it is in every cell, in every heart and in the subtle as well as the gross forms. Everything is saturated with this feeling of existence, but few are aware of it so we seem to live with sorrow and suffering is different qualities. I feel in the awareness of pure consciousness without quality, nirvanna if one likes is Bliss.

 

If you close your mind in judgements

and traffic with desires,

your heart will be troubled.

If you keep your mind from judging

and aren't led by the senses,

your heart will find peace.

 

"God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

It seems we are like a mirror facing God, our microcosmic mind being more outward and objective and God's macrocosmic mind being inward and subjective. As ordinary men and women we see everything in its outward appearance: therefore we are tempted to judge. God the Father sees everything in His inward appearance as it exist because all of creation is within Him. All that exists in this world from the vast universe down to the minutest atom exists in God so only the form changes. God the Father is the eternal witness seeing everything inwardly, and in reference to us he sees everything internally and externally through our eyes. Pure consciousness seems to pervade everything and is the linking force of all that is. Therefore, our duty is to expand our minds and make contact with this force that maintains our life. If our mind follows judgements and desires in the objective world we are living in physical world and are subject to positive and negative or suffering and pain.

 

In my experience the knowledge that we are part of something larger than ourselves, helps me form a silent partnership with God so His pure consciousness guides me in every way. I feel Divine Intelligence can flow, inspire, guide and enable us to take and put more back into life. I feel all we have to do is to recognize that pure consciousness, God the Father or Mother exists and accept its action in our lives and our heart will find peace.

 

Seeing into darkness is clarity.

Knowing how to yield is strength.

Use your own light

and return to the source of light.

This is called practicing eternity.

I feel the Divinity within or pure consciousness doesn't change in evolution, one just becomes aware of the light of pure consciousness within as the soul faces and reflects the Infinite. Everyone has pure consciousness because in every heart there is a secret nerve that answers to the vibrations of the soul, pure consciousness, the light, but not everyone is mindful of it. God’s pure consciousness doesn’t change, but people change allowing pure consciousness to shine through them. I feel this is practicing eternity in the Christian/Tao spiritual journey of evolution

[JosephM]

Chapter 53 now open for dialog/ discussion....

 

The great Way is easy,

yet people prefer the side paths.

Be aware when things are out of balance.

Stay centered within the Tao.

 

When rich speculators prosper

While farmers lose their land;

when government officials spend money

on weapons instead of cures;

when the upper class is extravagant and irresponsible

while the poor have nowhere to turn-

all this is robbery and chaos.

It is not in keeping with the Tao.

 

 

This sounds like a good sign that the Spirit is being neglected when these things are happening. However, i believe it is the things mentioned that bring on suffering and result most often in a renewed interest by the people for the things of God. (or the Tao, the way of the Spirit). What do you think?

[Marsha]

I was thinking, it sounds like our country, right now, and how out of balance we are in all of those areas.

 

Hopefully, awareness of that will make for a shift.

[JosephM]

Chapter 54 now open for dialog/discussion........

 

Whoever is planted in the Tao

will not be rooted up.

Whoever embraces the Tao

will not slip away.

Her name will be held in honor

from generation to generation.

 

Let the Tao be present in your life

and you will become genuine.

Let it be present in your family

and your family will flourish.

Let it be present in your country

and your country will be an example

to all countries in the world.

Let it be present in the universe

and the universe will sing.

 

How do I know this is true?

By looking inside myself.

[soma]

I feel this chapter is talking about alignment of the personality with the soul. I feel the soul knows The Ultimate Reality or Tao. Our mind constantly receives and displays images from the five senses, which are temporary. These images are constantly parading before our mind and intellect. These elements can be distracting and debilitating. It seems to be unattached from this stimuli, we need to engage, be grounded in and occupy ourselves with Truth, God, the Tao or Ultimate Reality. This ever present Reality is and was in the past, present, and the future so enjoyment in the present moment even with the objects around us can still maintain hope and expectation at the same time. The mind is grounded and not swayed by the temporary if seated in the soul because it seems to see things as they are in time and place. How do we know this? It can only be known by sitting in the seat of the soul or going inside with reverence and just witness.

[JosephM]

Chapter 55 now open for discussion/dialog.................

 

He who is in harmony with the Tao

is like a newborn child.

Its bones are soft, its muscles are weak,

but its grip is powerful.

It doesn't know about the union

of male and female,

yet its can stand erect,

so intense is its vital power.

It can scream its head off all day,

yet it never becomes hoarse,

so complete is its harmony.

 

The Master's power is like this.

He lets all things come and go

effortlessly, without desire.

He never expects results;

thus he is never disappointed.

He is never disappointed;

thus his spirit never grows old.

 

 

This translation to me seems like a tough one to make sense of. Perhaps someone can offer a different translation or interpretation. I would not have said "He never expects results" as it would to me seem more appropriate to say. he expects results but is never disappointed because he is not attached to them.

 

Joseph

[tariki]

Chapter 55 now open for discussion/dialog.................

 

He who is in harmony with the Tao

is like a newborn child.

Its bones are soft, its muscles are weak,

but its grip is powerful.

It doesn't know about the union

of male and female,

yet its ###### can stand erect,

so intense is its vital power.

It can scream its head off all day,

yet it never becomes hoarse,

so complete is its harmony.

 

The Master's power is like this.

He lets all things come and go

effortlessly, without desire.

He never expects results;

thus he is never disappointed.

He is never disappointed;

thus his spirit never grows old.

 

 

This translation to me seems like a tough one to make sense of. Perhaps someone can offer a different translation or interpretation. I would not have said "He never expects results" as it would to me seem more appropriate to say. he expects results but is never disappointed because he is not attached to them.

 

Joseph

 

Joseph,

 

There are quite a few websites that give various translations of the Tao Te Ching side by side. Just giving them a quick look it becomes obvious just how treacherous the sea of language is, and especially when seeking to translate one language/culture/age into another. Chapter 55 seems so diverse in various forms that I had trouble even trying to decide exactly what line of each translation related to any other.

 

I would just say that taking our own version at face value, it is advocating "love and do what you will", which for me implies acting without any particular end in view. As opposed to acting from an established position/viewpoint, which again implies acting with a particular end in view, and thus encouraging a sense of disappointment in oneself - and especially others! - when reality unfolds in unexpected ways!

 

Just my own way of seeing it...........not that I don't often look for results.....

[rivanna]

Joseph said "it would to me seem more appropriate to say, he expects results but is never disappointed because he is not attached to them." I agree.

 

Chapter 55 starts out saying the ideal state of Tao is like the original vitality of the newborn-- spontaneous, innocent, completely unselfconscious. As babies we acted on instinct, pure impulse. I dont think Lao Tsu is saying we should (or could) go back to the infants intensity, but we can be open and honest, without pretense or hidden motives.

 

As Tariki mentioned comparing translations of this chapter is confusing! They differ widely, and the second part doesnt seem to follow from the first.

 

Mainly I sense that this chapter goes along with others on being supple, not forcing things. The art of life is constant readjusting to your surroundings." ~Kazuko Okokaura

[soma]

Tao ch 55

 

“He who is in harmony with the Tao

is like a new born child.

Its bones are soft, it muscles are weak, but its grip is powerful.”

 

Luke 18:17

17 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

 

It seems we learn to trust in our own abilities rather than trusting God. A child rich in virtue has very few physical abilities, but the life of a child fulfills itself and others. It seems the ability of a child is the subliminal offering of the potential of virtue in abundance.

“It doesn't know about the union

of male and female,

yet its ###### can stand erect,

so intense is its vital power.

It can scream its head off all day,

yet it never becomes hoarse,

so complete is its harmony.”

 

Romans 12:16

16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[a] Do not be conceited.

 

I like this chapter because it caught me off guard. In my mind it shows man's problems beginning to surface as a confidence that a man or woman can stand before the Tao or God on one’s own merit, symbolized by the ###### standing erect. The organ is fully formed, showing the vital embodiment of force is at its height and strong. But then it goes on to say without a thought of joined organs in male and female, it seems the ###### can stand erect symbolizing the power of life within. With the essence and vital energy at its height, it seems the male or female are ready to harmonize with the instincts and unite with the undivided whole. The verse shows me the mind is innocent yet the body is virile showing vigor as plentiful as we grow in wholeness, it seems to show me that we can keep our vitality in perfect integrity if we hold ourselves in perfect virtue without lust or anger. We can do this if we live in harmony with one another and not think we are better or can do without others.

 

"The Master's power is like this.

He lets all things come and go

effortlessly, without desire.

He never expects results;

thus he is never disappointed.

He is never disappointed;

thus his spirit never grows old.

 

It seems the Tao will let life ripen and fall. Telling us our individual will is not the way because it denies the way of life. If we want to change our natural instincts it is against the way of the Tao. God gives and God takes away. He is a loving God that gives us what we need to grow in His/Her love.

[JosephM]

Chapter 56 now open for discussion/dialog

 

Those who know don't talk.

Those who talk don't know.

 

Close your mouth,

block off your senses,

blunt your sharpness,

untie your knots,

soften your glare,

settle your dust.

This is the primal identity.

 

Be like the Tao.

It can't be approached or withdrawn from,

benefited or harmed,

honored or brought into disgrace.

It gives itself up continually.

That is why it endures.

 

To me, it certainly sounds very profound. Have you any insights or thoughts?

 

Joseph

[Kath]

Chapter 56 now open for discussion/dialog

 

Those who know don't talk.

Those who talk don't know.

 

Close your mouth,

block off your senses,

blunt your sharpness,

untie your knots,

soften your glare,

settle your dust.

This is the primal identity.

 

Be like the Tao.

It can't be approached or withdrawn from,

benefited or harmed,

honored or brought into disgrace.

It gives itself up continually.

That is why it endures.

 

To me, it certainly sounds very profound. Have you any insights or thoughts?

 

Joseph

 

Hi Joseph,

 

Yes, I have a few thoughts. This could have been written for me

 

I see this as a very safe and neutral, plus subjective place to be in. I interpret as saying, "be a good little lamb and don't assume to know anything or have an opinion if you're not qualified in the minds of others.

 

well, you asked

 

"Those who know don't talk...those who talk don't know" That's not necessarily true. I always like to know the established mindset behind quotes such as these.

 

I have a quote also. "Usually, if you're not up on it, you're down on it"

 

But most imortantly, what I want to ask is if this book has any stories of retribution by a vengeful God as the bible has, or any stories which would ostracize people for being homosexual. I'm wondering this to support my position that there are other books to follow beside the bible which could be spiritually and morally uplifiting.

 

I hope you don't mind my interjecting these thoughts

 

Kath

[JosephM]

Hi Kath and welcome to the Other Wisdom Traditions area,

 

You are most welcome to interject your thoughts at any time. The Tao is a very short book and can be read in about an hour or less depending on how fast you read. Rather than telling you that this book has no retribution by a vengeful God (although i don't see it does), i would be very interested in your opinion and whether you feel it has any commonality with the Bible after you read it. The version we are discussing can be found here and you are most welcome to participate and share your own interpretation. I'm certain we would all learn something from each other.

 

Joseph

[JosephM]

Those who know don't talk.

Those who talk don't know.

 

Close your mouth,

block off your senses,

blunt your sharpness,

untie your knots,

soften your glare,

settle your dust.

This is the primal identity.

 

 

I think the key in this version is the last sentence i have quoted. To enter the realm of Spirit, to be one with the Tao, to commune with God or any similar words used , it is necessary to get to the primal identity. (meaning first in time or original identity) In other words, this is your source, who you are in Christ, who you are at your deepest level of being.

To get there (not a physical place or locality) the proceeding things to that last sentence must be done. If God is a Spirit then the senses won't get you there. The way to God is in silence and not through the senses. Hence the Tao tells us not to talk and to block off our senses. To soften the glare is to look beyond the sharpness of the eyes of the senses. Perhaps others can share any similarities they might see to any Christian teachings. Buddhist teachings to me seem very similar in finding reality. One trains the mind to be still so one can go beyond it.

 

Joseph

[Kath]

Hi Kath and welcome to the Other Wisdom Traditions area,

 

You are most welcome to interject your thoughts at any time. The Tao is a very short book and can be read in about an hour or less depending on how fast you read. Rather than telling you that this book has no retribution by a vengeful God (although i don't see it does), i would be very interested in your opinion and whether you feel it has any commonality with the Bible after you read it. The version we are discussing can be found here and you are most welcome to participate and share your own interpretation. I'm certain we would all learn something from each other.

 

Joseph

 

Thank you, Joseph! I will read it and be happy to contribute. I appreciate the offer.

 

Kath

[soma]

Those who know don't talk.

Those who talk don't know.

I think this is referring to the knowledge that the infinite can’t be described with anything finite. Religion seems to talk about God, but without the spiritual experience their talk seems to be only rumors handed down by the church as faith.

 

Close your mouth,

block off your senses,

blunt your sharpness,

untie your knots,

soften your glare,

settle your dust.

This is the primal identity.

 

I think it is telling us to redirect our attention because we are attracted by what is active and moving and not by what is still and peaceful.

 

Be like the Tao.

It can't be approached or withdrawn from,

benefited or harmed,

honored or brought into disgrace.

It gives itself up continually.

That is why it endures.

 

I feel it is saying merge with the spirit and you will have no limits, problems or worries.

As a physical entity we are in one place at a time and subject to physical forces.

As spirit we are connected to the source of renewal.

[Marsha]

Perhaps others can share any similarities they might see to any Christian teachings.

 

"Be still and know that I am God" -Psalms 46:10

[rivanna]

I like the way this chapter focuses particularly on softness and restraint.

There are many parallel verses in the bible on not anxiously striving – one that comes to mind for me is in Philippians, “Let your gentleness be known to all. The Lord is near.”

 

and also a quote by Thomas Merton --

“Happiness is not a matter of intensity but of balance, order, rhythm and harmony.”

 

Merton probably experienced this truth many times—poets /writers are prone to being too intense (I should know!)

[JosephM]

Chapter 57 now open for dialog/discussion.....

 

If you want to be a great leader,

you must learn to follow the Tao.

Stop trying to control.

Let go of fixed plans and concepts,

and the world will govern itself.

 

The more prohibitions you have,

the less virtuous people will be.

The more weapons you have,

the less secure people will be.

The more subsidies you have,

the less self-reliant people will be.

 

Therefore the Master says:

I let go of the law,

and people become honest.

I let go of economics,

and people become prosperous.

I let go of religion,

and people become serene.

I let go of all desire for the common good,

and the good becomes common as grass.

 

 

To me, this chapter is worth reading multiple times. It says so much in so little. It points to the truth 'that there is one undivided truth at the root of all things' . Knowing this brings peace and vision and a non controlling spirit. Some might look at this chapter as breeding complacency or apathy so in my view, it has to be understood at a deeper level to see it for what it is. Perhaps some here may be able to use words or Christian writings to make better sense of it to others.

 

Joseph

[Kath]

Chapter 57 now open for dialog/discussion.....

 

If you want to be a great leader,

you must learn to follow the Tao.

Stop trying to control.

Let go of fixed plans and concepts,

and the world will govern itself.

 

The more prohibitions you have,

the less virtuous people will be.

The more weapons you have,

the less secure people will be.

The more subsidies you have,

the less self-reliant people will be.

 

Therefore the Master says:

I let go of the law,

and people become honest.

I let go of economics,

and people become prosperous.

I let go of religion,

and people become serene.

I let go of all desire for the common good,

and the good becomes common as grass.

 

 

To me, this chapter is worth reading multiple times. It says so much in so little. It points to the truth 'that there is one undivided truth at the root of all things' . Knowing this brings peace and vision and a non controlling spirit. Some might look at this chapter as breeding complacency or apathy so in my view, it has to be understood at a deeper level to see it for what it is. Perhaps some here may be able to use words or Christian writings to make better sense of it to others.

 

Joseph

 

Joseph,

 

I want to say that I truly appreciate this thread and need to set aside time to absorb it. It might take a while.

 

the fact that you have contributed this along with the progressive Christian concept reveals to me that you are truly a seeker and progressive thinker, and I appreciate your contribution to this forum.

 

Kath

[Kath]

Joseph,

 

I spent some speed reading time to go through the Taos and have to say I found NOTHING negative. Each lesson would be one which we could absolutely expound upon and discuss.

 

Here are two of my favorites:

 

Not-knowing is true knowledge.

Presuming to know is a disease.

First realize that you are sick;

then you can move toward health.

 

The Master is her own physician.

She has healed herself of all knowing.

Thus she is truly whole.

 

And...

 

 

When they lose their sense of awe,

people turn to religion.

When they no longer trust themselves,

they begin to depend upon authority.

 

Therefore the Master steps back

so that people won't be confused.

He teaches without a teaching,

so that people will have nothing to learn.

 

 

 

That sense of awe can come very early on.

 

Yes, I think this could very well have replaced the bible. I think the world would have been a better place if so. I'm thinking and wondering why the bible was allowed to happen.

 

we have to right the wrongs. The new world order has a stronghold on our current existence and it's extremely strong. We have to develop a counter, Star Wars force to make a difference. Anyone who doesn't get this isn't paying attention to what's really happening in this world.

 

Sorry to go on into this, but it's a reality which has to be acknowledged.

 

 

 

( p.s. I also love how 'she' is used intermittently for the niceity of the intent. )

 

Kath

[tariki]

kath, one thought that came to me was that the Bible is a collection of books written over a long time frame. Maybe to pick out, say, Proverbs.......then one of the Gospels. Let them stand alone? The Tao Te Ching is just one book, written by one man (I assume!.... ), and obviously written from an "enlightened perspective". Just how such a "perspective" makes headway in any human being, or any particular culture, well..........

 

Not-knowing is true knowledge.

 

The way of unknowing, the negative/apophatic way, is a rich one. And has a long tradi -tion in Christian mysticism (Eckhart and St John of the Cross) Also, one of my favorite Buddhist writers, Stephen Batchelor, has written a book "Living with the Devil" wherein he equates the work of the "Devil" (Mara in Buddhist texts) with the various ideas of the "self" that we identify with - and thus freeze ourselves within their rigid definitions. Batchelor argues that a degree of unknowing - the recognition that we are contingent beings within a rich matrix of other contingent events - can lead to creativity, to a greater potential of empathy and communion with others and the world around us.

 

Anyway, for me the "true knowledge" is not a bank of information that we hoard and draw upon as required, but more a spontaneity of "being" (or NON-being!)