The Tao Te Ching

[Mike]

Well Tariki and All,

Since you want to drag your feet

 

You know I really have to say again I liked the post of Rivanna's when she said ...

"Mitchell’s note on chapter 18 sums it up well for me: “When the Tao is forgotten people act according to rules, not from the heart. This goodness is as insecure as Job’s, and can be as self- satisfied at Little Jack Horner’s. Whereas a good person has no intention of being good; he/she just acts naturally.”

 

 

 

It brought me back to the garden of Eden where mankind choose to eat from the 'tree of knowledge of good and evil' rather than the 'tree of life'. I see the tree of knowledge of good and evil as acting from rules/laws. I think Paul hints at it when he is recorded saying...

 

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:19-20 (KJV)

 

 

It seems to me a necessary obstacle for the consciousness of men to pass through. (the law whether written or unwritten) In a sense it was our "schoolmaster" to bring us unto what we Christians call Christ. ref: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, Gal 3:24 (KJV)

 

One that is now free from the law has no intention of being good but rather acts out of harmony with the the One through Christ. ( or Buddha or the Tao etc ) Just a couple more tidbits with no charge.

 

 

Joseph

 

I agree. The garden of Eden is such a rich metaphor or picture. It is very much open to interpretation, yes, but that seems to enhance its mystique. Thomas Merton in 'The Inner Experience' says basically that 'knowing good and evil' indicates a lack of wholeness for it implies division:

 

…we notice a deep symbolic wisdom in Patristic interpretations of the story of the Fall in Genesis. This indeed is the forbidden tree: this tree of self, which grows in the middle of Paradise, but which we ourselves are not supposed to see or notice. All other trees are there, and they refresh us with their fruits. Of them we can be aware, and they are there to be enjoyed for the love of God. But if we become aware of ourselves, turn back too much upon ourselves, and seek to rest in ourselves, then we take the fruit that was forbidden us: we become "as gods, knowing good and evil," for we find division within ourselves and are cut off from external reality at the same time.

 

Well Tariki and All,

Since you want to drag your feet

 

I think this indicates that we are all indeed learning something from the Tao Te Ching!

 

inserted Rivanna's quote - JosephM (as Moderator) 10-03-09 1:41PM

 

[soma]

Mike, Your post is right on, my son wants to read the Bhagavadgita next. He is looking for a good translation if you have any ideas.

 

The sutras tell us that karma is similar to a chain and it doesn't matter if the chain is gold or steal. It still binds us to the material plane. If we do a mean act than a similar mean act will happen to us. They even figure in interest if it takes awhile for the repayment the reaction is greater, which corresponds with psychology. Jesus said, "What ever you sow, you shall reap." Einstein said, E=Mc2 Energy is conserved, it just changes form. A good act also brings similar results so one is still in the wheel of life and death. You think you are performing the act so you have to experience the good results. I think that is why Jesus gave us the technique or mantra of "Let Thy Will Be Done."

 

The Father is so widespread that everything is within Him and He is within everything. I like to refer to this as pure consciousness, which is outside and inside. God's pure consciousness is everywhere like the sun's energy spreading all over the world and shinning on everyone good and bad. The only thing that separates one from the energy of the Father is the umbrella of ego. When one leaves the ‘doer I' part of the mind and approaches the ‘pure I', the aims of life are fulfilled and life becomes fruitful. I think this is similar to I am writing, I am doing good, I am sinning, I am helping, the 'doer I' thinks it is doing all these things. When we remove all the verbs there is only the 'pure I', the witness of being in human being. We aren't human doings. To do this one needs to make the universal will 'Thy will' or "Let They will be done." This is the one way to make the ego in the human personality unattached. Inner commitment and reverence are needed to help one to acquire Christ consciousness and to give one the knowledge that one is divine and not the ‘doer I'. I do good acts then I receive the reactions of my actions because I am doing the action. With the thought of "Let Thy Will be Done" which is so hard. A spiritual practice that takes a long time to master because one not doing the action, God is doing the action through the person who is witnessing the action. Therefore, the person does not receive the fruit of that action. I love talking about this, but I don't know if it makes any sense to anyone, but myself.

 

Joseph, I agree with exactly to what you wrote so to tie that in with the above I might add that the tree of knowledge of good and evil puzzled Adam, and he lost the spiritual connection with the whole. Adam saw everything through the veil of his individual ego so he saw things menacing him and separate from God because the balance of the universe became blurred. After leaving the Garden of Eden and the state of pure consciousness, Adam tried to regain his original state by creating his own balance. This creation of individual consciousness is not reality because it is a state of isolation on the physical level, not a working together in harmony with the whole. The unit consciousness focused outwardly on the physical level, turns out to be the first phase of evolution.

The second phase of evolution I feel is a conscious development or rising above the external, physical world. The mind is very remarkable how it creates and maintains the illusion of ego and hides our real self. I feel we on this forum are aware and moving on the second phase of evolution, which is finding ourselves in and apart of the pure unified consciousness of Our Lord. "Lord Let Thy Will Be Done. Isn't amazing how the Tao can make us better Christian.

[JosephM]

Moving right along since Dutch has told me he would not be posting in this area til he gets a little personal business out of the way sometime later this month..... so if there are no objections by my friend Tariki Chapter 19 now open for comments .......

 

Throw away holiness and wisdom,

and people will be a hundred times happier.

Throw away morality and justice,

and people will do the right thing.

Throw away industry and profit,

and there won't be any thieves.

 

If these three aren't enough,

just stay at the center of the circle

and let all things take their course.

 

Joseph

[rivanna]

Stanza 19 condenses a lot into a few lines. Not sure I understand all of it, or can imagine how the teaching could actually be put into practice. Mitchell’s note on the first line is helpful: “When some folks are called saints, other folks think of themselves as sinners. When one fellow is called wise, others imagine that there is something they need to know. The master doesn’t have these categories – no one is wise or holy; thus everyone feels at home.” Avoiding distinctions that tend to exclude, is an idea found repeatedly in the new testament, for instance Paul saying “there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female” (Galatians), the passages on the wisdom of the world being foolishness to God, etc.

 

A few reflections from previous posts --Tariki mentioned the word spiral as alternative to cyclical – I like that - implies the possibility of civilizations learning from history every once in a while.

 

It seems that in the Tao there’s the assumption of humans belonging to the earth, whereas in Christian ideology man is given dominion over the earth and we “belong” to God. Nature in the bible is indifferent or hostile, while in the Tao it’s the nourishing Great Mother. Is there any difference between the Tao and nature? or would Lao Tsu say there is, but it can’t be put into words?

 

As others have noted - contrasting different ways of thought makes us more aware that we do have a choice about how to view whatever situation we find ourselves in.

[JosephM]

As possibly with others, I have to admit that Chapter nineteen as written was at first a bit perplexing to me. At least until I reminded myself what this book is all about. It is a book about the Tao (the Way),or in Christianity the path or way to Yahweh, the nameless God and addressed not to the population per Se but rather to the one seeking the Way. It is advice to us.

 

Throw away holiness and wisdom,

and people will be a hundred times happier.

 

This seems to me to be advice speaking concerning forsaking or throwing away the pretense of holiness and the wisdom of this world that is found in self. (man). As Paul writes...

 

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 21 Therefore let no man glory in men.1 Cor 3:18-21 (KJV)

 

Throw away morality and justice,

and people will do the right thing.

 

This speaks to me to put away or stop living by your own conditioned morality and self appointed justice and you will naturally do the right thing.

 

True and real justice only comes from God who only has complete knowledge.

 

Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.Psalms 89:14 (KJV)

 

In my view, Morality is usually man-made, based on society and what is deems acceptable or unacceptable at that time for that culture. It seems to me that even if it is taken from a religion which is also man-made then it is subject to beliefs and conditioning by the ruling religious party in power at the time.

 

Doing the ' thing right ' according to the Tao involves being centered in the Tao or in Christianity having 'the mind of Christ' in which is hid all knowledge and wisdom.

 

Throw away industry and profit,

and there won't be any thieves.

 

This speaks to me to forsake profiteering and a priority for industry and instead seek the kingdom of heaven and there won't be any things that thieves can steal..

 

Or as Jesus is recorded saying... 19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:Matt 6:19 (KJV)

 

If these three aren't enough,

just stay at the center of the circle

and let all things take their course.

 

This to me speaks of staying centered, focused and watch and be aware always. Right actions will come from that place. Its the same as remaining in Christ or waiting for the coming of Christ as a metaphor.

 

Joseph

[soma]

It seems every action is a mixture of good and evil, yet we are compelled to work incessantly. Good and evil will both have results. They both bind us to reap what we sow, good or bad. Good action will entail upon us good effect; bad action, bad effect. They are both bondages of the soul. I think the Tao is giving us a solution in this regard to the bondage producing nature of our actions. If we do not attach ourselves to the work we do, it will not have any binding effect on our soul. I think the Tao is saying work incessantly, but do not be attached to it. Using the simile of a lake for the mind, every ripple, every wave that rises in the mind, when it subsides, does not die out entirely, but leaves a mark and a future possibility of that wave will come out again. Every action we take, every movement of the body, every thought that we think, leaves an impression on the mind, and even when impressions are not obvious on the surface, they work beneath the surface, subconsciously. We are determined by the total of our impressions on the mind. I am at this moment the effect of all the impressions of my past life. This is really what is meant by character; each man's character is determined these impressions. If good impressions prevail, the character becomes good; if bad, it becomes bad.

 

Throw away holiness and wisdom,

and people will be a hundred times happier.

 

People will be happy being themselves, not striving to become something they are not. One is wise, but there are no classes or lesson to become wise. One is holy. If we are doing things to be holy then at the time we are not holy.

 

Throw away morality and justice,

and people will do the right thing.

 

If one is grounded in Christ mind one will do the right thing naturally just being in Christ consciousness. Morality and justice are relative while Christ's mind is non changing. One can substitute Tao for Christ.

 

If these three aren't enough,

just stay at the center of the circle

and let all things take their course.

 

I really think un-attachment is the key. Good things and bad things, good thoughts and bad thoughts come and go. It is the attachment and reactions to those attachments that make us mad,arrogant, self-righteous, opinionated and cause us pain. We think we can't live without something so our tightfisted attitude wears us out, but as soon as we let go and relax we know we didn't need it. Living in the moment un-attached to the past or the future outcome, one is in the center of the wheel away from the positive and negative effects. One witnesses oneself on the wheel going up to the highest point knowing the turning will bring one back to the bottom to start up again. The action of the wheel is turning like the mind, but if one is witnessing unattached in the center and one not affected by the ups and downs. I like the phrase "I am a soul with a mind and not a mind with a soul." I use mind instead of body because it is more active than body. My soul is not active it just is while my mind is constantly active or turning like the wheel

[rivanna]

Soma, Joseph, reading your interpretations helped to clarify the meaning of this chapter for me – seems much like the new testament concept of law vs grace, as I think you indicated.

 

It’s amazing how widely the translations differ from each other. Jerry Welch’s version says “propagate simplicity, diminish idealisms, abandon absolutisms, and there will be nothing left to worry about.” Ron Hogan’s ends with this line: “Stay focused. Get rid of all your crap.”

[JosephM]

I like what Jerry says Karen,

 

However I would say, don't be attached to all your crap instead of get rid of it.

 

Joseph

[soma]

Great input. I think it is alright to own stuff, to have a wife, ideology, children, home ect. We don't need to get rid of the stuff, but be unattached to it. Material things will come and go just like thoughts, the problems come when we are attached to them. Some monks, ministers, priest take a vow of poverty, but become attached to thoughts, rigid beliefs, congregations and develop problems trying to protect those things. I see thoughts as things too. This Tao/Christian tapestry we are weaving is awesome.

[Mike]

Mike, Your post is right on, my son wants to read the Bhagavadgita next. He is looking for a good translation if you have any ideas.

 

The sutras tell us that karma is similar to a chain and it doesn't matter if the chain is gold or steal. It still binds us to the material plane. If we do a mean act than a similar mean act will happen to us. They even figure in interest if it takes awhile for the repayment the reaction is greater, which corresponds with psychology. Jesus said, "What ever you sow, you shall reap." Einstein said, E=Mc2 Energy is conserved, it just changes form. A good act also brings similar results so one is still in the wheel of life and death. You think you are performing the act so you have to experience the good results. I think that is why Jesus gave us the technique or mantra of "Let Thy Will Be Done."

 

The Father is so widespread that everything is within Him and He is within everything. I like to refer to this as pure consciousness, which is outside and inside. God's pure consciousness is everywhere like the sun's energy spreading all over the world and shinning on everyone good and bad. The only thing that separates one from the energy of the Father is the umbrella of ego. When one leaves the ‘doer I' part of the mind and approaches the ‘pure I', the aims of life are fulfilled and life becomes fruitful. I think this is similar to I am writing, I am doing good, I am sinning, I am helping, the 'doer I' thinks it is doing all these things. When we remove all the verbs there is only the 'pure I', the witness of being in human being. We aren't human doings. To do this one needs to make the universal will 'Thy will' or "Let They will be done." This is the one way to make the ego in the human personality unattached. Inner commitment and reverence are needed to help one to acquire Christ consciousness and to give one the knowledge that one is divine and not the ‘doer I'. I do good acts then I receive the reactions of my actions because I am doing the action. With the thought of "Let Thy Will be Done" which is so hard. A spiritual practice that takes a long time to master because one not doing the action, God is doing the action through the person who is witnessing the action. Therefore, the person does not receive the fruit of that action. I love talking about this, but I don't know if it makes any sense to anyone, but myself.

 

Thanks for sharing your insights about this, you are good with words my friend. Don't worry, what you say does make sense to me, and I too love talking about and pondering matters like this. I see in these discussions an intersection between metaphysics and 'real life.' I don’t care too much for detached philosophy, but I do like philosophy in its true sense, which is the search after wisdom. Wisdom deeply involves us as persons in 'real life'.

 

As to your first question, I'd like to say I know enough about the Bhagavadgita to make an educated recommendation for a translation, but I don't. I have not yet even read the whole text. But I have been reading 'The Play of God' which is a very interesting and accessible retelling of the life of Krishna by a contemporary Hindu mystic. I'm impressed by how similar the incarnation/nativity stories between Jesus and Krishna are.

 

 

 

Moving right along since Dutch has told me he would not be posting in this area til he gets a little personal business out of the way sometime later this month..... so if there are no objections by my friend Tariki Chapter 19 now open for comments .......

 

Throw away holiness and wisdom,

and people will be a hundred times happier.

Throw away morality and justice,

and people will do the right thing.

Throw away industry and profit,

and there won't be any thieves.

 

If these three aren't enough,

just stay at the center of the circle

and let all things take their course.

 

Joseph

 

As I understand, the Taoists most value a goodness that is spontaneous and natural, as opposed to a 'forced' goodness that may at root be just another type of self-assertion. Jesus consistently derailed the self-righteousness of the religious leaders of his time. They were so righteous that they lost sight of what being ‘good’ is about. True goodness, then, comes from within and is not conscious of itself. We say ‘goodness is its own reward’ - and we’d really like to believe it, because if this were not the case then ‘goodness’ would kind of lose itself. I believe somebody already quoted Jesus’ teaching about praying alone and not like hypocrites who pray in public for attention and self-assertion. Their reward does not extend beyond the praise of men and the swelling of their egos, and they never know the natural goodness of authenticity - of being true before God. Truth is more important. Truth is union with God. Truth is knowing God and being known by God. Truth and ‘the [real] good’ go hand-in-hand. In my opinion, this is the only way the adage ‘goodness is its own reward’ can be faithfully practiced or realized without latent hypocrisy and insincere motivation.

 

Taoism, then, is the opposite of what you would call a moralizing or moralistic religion - in my simplistic knowledge of Chinese religious history, perhaps Taoism is a reaction to Confucianism, which is highly structured and entails a great deal of deliberate moral reflection (Taoism and Confucianism may be seen as yin and yang in this sense). Taoism is a response to externally imposed moralistic order, and I think while we do need to know ethical instruction, at some point we also need to realize that we cannot be servants of our ideals and we need to allow for us, like unblocking a stream, to cultivate our natural wisdom with which we can in turn respond to whatever specific situation arises. Ethical theories, like theories in general, are incomplete, and no matter what system you devise there is always something excluded, some question not addressed. And the tighter and narrower the system is, the more seems to slip between the cracks.

 

It goes back to our discussion about the Garden of Eden. Reflection on morality, ‘knowing good and evil’ splits or divides the self and separates us from the natural wisdom within.

 

Personally I do believe we need ethical instruction, but perhaps at some age or maturity we also need to be rescued from the confines of our limited, human constructs. At that point, we learn that while morality is a necessary tool, it may ultimately be a symbol, an approximation, or pointer to the real thing - which is the wisdom of the inner self. Taoism, like mysticism in general, seeks to rescue us from the tyranny of our concepts and categories and allow for the truth of our being to operate freely according to its deepest or truest nature without being unnaturally or awkwardly forced. ‘Forcing’ ultimately distorts who we really are and leaves us in confusion. To avoid this you must stay at the center. The world of duality circles upon itself endlessly without relent, and while you continue to mistake your true self for ‘this’ or ‘that’ you are always being carried along and cannot find the release of truth. As with the whole message of the Tao, and in Christian scripture, we are called to a new identity.

[tariki]

I've read through the various posts on the latest chapter, and really I have nothing to add, except to say that again and aganin I was reminded of an essay by Thomas Merton, entitled "A Study of Chuang Tzu". This can be found in Merton's book "The Way of Chuang Tzu". I've been unable to trace the essay on the internet anywhere, I was hoping to provide a link. Anyway, the whole essay is very relevant to these last few chapters and is well worth seeking out.

[JosephM]

Well then, At that, we will move on to chapter 20 which is one of the longer Chapters, now open for your comments.....

 

Stop thinking, and end your problems.

What difference between yes and no?

What difference between success and failure?

Must you value what others value,

avoid what others avoid?

How ridiculous!

 

Other people are excited,

as though they were at a parade.

I alone don't care,

I alone am expressionless,

like an infant before it can smile.

 

Other people have what they need;

I alone possess nothing.

I alone drift about,

like someone without a home.

I am like an idiot, my mind is so empty.

 

Other people are bright;

I alone am dark.

Other people are sharper;

I alone am dull.

Other people have a purpose;

I alone don't know.

I drift like a wave on the ocean,

I blow as aimless as the wind.

 

I am different from ordinary people.

I drink from the Great Mother's breasts.

[tariki]

The current chapter is one of those that I can skim through and feel some sort of instant recognition - perhaps not the I am different from ordinary people, which just seems to jar somewhat - yet when I go back read in detail and see stop thinking, or I alone don't care, or being dark or dull........well, my mind starts reaching for further clarification. Which seems to be just what isn't required.

 

I saw a little book advertised recently, something about Bob Dylan and Zen, I think it was called something like "Barganing for Salvation". It was relating Dylan's lyrics to Zen, which I suppose is as good as anything to relate them to. I must say that the third line, What difference between success and failure? brought instantly to mind the lyric from "Love Minus Zero- No Limit"............she knows there's no success like failure, and that failure's no success at all. I've been trying to learn this particular song on the guitar over the past few months, and I would certainly argue that "failure" is the best word for my efforts so far. Which just goes to show how difficult it is to "understand" some of the Tao Te Ching. Anyway, I'm waffling as usual.

 

To me is does come back to the old Pure Land phrase "no working is true working". We can spend a lifetime honing the "self"/ego, trying to knock it into shape as something fit to present before the "king", yet the Pure Land teaching is that its only when the activities of the ego fade away that the "true working" of Amida's Compassion manifests itself.

 

My experience is that we can think ourselves to death. During my Christian Liberal days I spent a great deal of time reading up on Theodicy, the so called problem of evil and its existence in the face of a "loving" God. I must have read a dozen books or more and began to think myself wise. I remember one night walking up to the local club for a couple of beers and I was going over all the "justifications" for evil in my mind, mulling over the various arguments and reasons why any "reasonable" person could believe in a loving God despite the sufferings of our world. Just as I felt this warm gush of assurance, there was a loud shriek of tyres and a hideous yelp. A dog had been struck by a car. Soon the dog was quivering on the path, still yelping, and its owners had run out of their house seeking to comfort it. In the face of this naked event and its stark reality, all my book learned justifications were swept away and all the arguments appeared empty. I suppose, ultimately we just act and do something about the suffering we see or we just shut up!

 

And another thing that came to mind was the gospel phrase, except ye become like little children, which really does seem apt when considering drinking from the Great Mothers breasts..........

[soma]

Tariki, Nice story. I remind myself that intellectual study, mediation, and different services are just tools to experience God in either the personal or abstract form. When the experience comes all thinking stops and the pure experience takes over. It takes and took time for me to believe and accept the unifying force I call God and for the undesirable experiences accumulated to gradually disappear. We are either for or against unity so for something new to be born I had to pass from a sense of being isolated into a realization of oneness with everything. While doing breathing exercises I watch the breath enter and watch the breath exhale, but between inhale and exhale there is a subtle unity where it seems my mind is suspended between and united with the two. The mind is active, but after awhile the breath is doing the breathing on it's own as if I am being breathed by another force and my mind tired of watching becomes suspended. Practicing regularly, I gradually realized that I am not the body, not the mind, but a consciousness or soul if you wish with these mechanisms.

 

When I am driving my chariot by thinking and reacting with my body or mind it seems to always lead me to pain or isolation, but when I listen to the quiet passenger just riding along always with me. I find a place free of pain, problems, thinking and competition. The tools get me to the point where I listen to the passenger and try to quiet the ever active mind and body. When I become aware of the tools again, I know I am not there. A welcome back to isolation, back from the unified consciousness.

[rivanna]

This chapter of the Tao is one of my favorites, in the Feng/ English translation especially. I like the way the ending affirms and reassures the speaker despite the rather melancholy sense of alienation from society. In stanzas like these the Tao can be seen as a woman-friendly poem, probably also comforting to gays/bisexuals as well.

 

A bit of background that caught my eye, from Leonard Shlain’s The Alphabet vs the Goddess: “Like two sine waves, Taoism and Confucianism interweave throughout China’s long history. Taoism promoted mother nature as the guiding force, while Confucianism touted father culture. Their respective founders, LaoTzu and Confucius, were contemporaries, but Taoism represented an egalitarian feminine viewpoint, while Confucianism championed masculine dominance and hierarchy. Lao Tzu may well have been a woman. The Tao temple was a meeting place for everyone, where women enjoyed equal status as men and there were as many female as male masters.”

[JosephM]

Chapter 20 as a whole....

 

It seems to me, one who is able to put his/her life dependence on the Tao or Christ (the Way) is not filled with needless egoic thoughts defining oneself or others. This leaves the mind as it were empty devoid of thoughts of success or failure or role playing. This leaves the mind with little room to fit into the stories of others heavily identified with their roles. People who appear to have homes parading and filling the world with drama as if they have purpose yet living no more than an unconscious role as a player in the game of life that looks important and filled with excitement but is found absent of true purpose. It is when one is devoid of all these roles and concepts of success and failure, and the value systems of others that we function from a deeper level of our being in harmony with the whole and are able by simple presence to effect real purpose aligned with the whole.

 

This is what this chapter seems to say to me..

Joseph

[tariki]

I've been mulling over the line.........I am different from ordinary people, which I mentioned before as jarring upon my sensitivities. Another copy of the Tao Te Ching I have uses the phrase......In this way I am different from others, after stating that his own life had not got into a "groove". I think this all just goes to show how treacherous the sea of language is, and the pitfalls of any translation, depending as it does on the insight and understanding of the translator. (There are those in the Buddhist community who insist that the Dharma can only be perfectly understood if the texts are read in the original; more othen than not this is Pali. Yet it seems to me that any word, however original, is just the attempted "translation" of something beyond words. Just how close can words get? )

 

The letter kills but the spirit gives life. Maybe worth a thread of its own?

 

Anyway, I logged on just to quote another little story which I lived with for a few years, one of those that pop into the head every so often at random moments, which guide and prod. It has to do with the "ordinary" and comes from the Jewish tradition......

 

A man of piety complained to the Baal Shem Tov, saying: "I have laboured hard and long in the service of the Lord, and yet I have received no improvement. I am still an ordinary and ignorant person."

 

The Besht answered: "You have gained the realization that you are ordinary and ignorant, and this in itself is a worthy accomplishment."

 

At the end of the day, this all has virtually nothing to do with the chapter in question, but in my own wayward mind it all led on from it.

[JosephM]

Tariki,

Thanks, It seems to fit in well to me to some of the verses.

Joseph

[Mike]

Perhaps it is that Laotsu feels naked before reality, without pretense. This chapter may represent melancholy, or it may be satire about the way the 'rest' of the world imagines itself to be. Or it could have something of both, as in Kierkegaard. The point may be that the rest of the world, beyond the veil of pretense, is in reality closer to Laotsu's description of himself than it would like to think. It was Thoreau who said 'the mass of men live lives of quiet desperation.' Laotsu seems to emphasize 'I alone,' as if to paint a surreal image. Either way it does draw a stark contrast between the way of the Tao and the 'way of the world.' In Christianity we are told to be in the world but not 'of' it, to follow the 'way of the Lord' as opposed to the way of death. Laotsu describes a state that is not typically desirable - it is contrary to our common understanding of what a good and happy existence is about. But Jesus also turned against common sense by saying you must lose your life to find it. The difference between Laotsu and 'the world', then, is that Laotsu is aware of his state, and is therefore able to be nourished by the truth rather than being blinded to it by pretense.

[tariki]

Mike, your post jogged ideas drawn from Merton's essay on Chuang Tzu that I mentioned previously. Merton wrote that Chuang Tzu advocated doing absolutely nothing towards gaining "happiness", that to define "happiness" would be to objectify it and thus to turn your own life into a self defeating pursuit of it. And it is this way with everything. Merton is able to explain this much better than I. Our definitions, though useful at times - and I suppose some can be more precise and acurate than others - can also be misleading......when we are forever judging ourselves against them, and seeking to conform to them. All what has been called misguided self-seeking

 

When a hideous man becomes a father

And a son is born to him

In the middle of the night

He trembles and lights a lamp

And runs to look in anguish

On that child's face

To see whom he resembles. (Chuang Tzu, Translation by Thomas Merton)

 

Often the "middle way" of Buddhism is understood as some sort of mid-point between two positions, but in fact the "middle way" is not a third position between two extremes but a no-position that supersedes both.

 

My own mind has been scrambling itself seeking a final defintion that captures the way of being in the world but not of it. Do not be conformed to the world We are all definitly in it - up to our necks! - yet there is a sense in which we are distanced from it. The way of the world at times seems like a projected image of the way of our false self works - or doesnt work. Sometimes when we see the games played we perhaps just need to smile and pass on without a backward glance! Infinite definitions, and apply a bit of pick n' mix! For me its best to forget the lot and allow grace/mercy to do the "work".

 

Nothing is left to Saichi

Except a joyful heart nothing is left to him.

Neither good nor bad has he, all is taken away from him;

Nothing is left to him!

To have nothing- how completely satisfying! (from Saichi's Journals)

[rivanna]

Mitchell’s note on the line about being different -- “I am more ordinary. When I am hungry, I eat; when I am tired, I sleep; that’s all. After enlightenment one is still the same as one was before; one is simply free from unreality and delusion. The ordinary person’s mind is the same as the sage’s because Original Mind is perfect and complete in itself.”

 

I agree with Mike’s point that the speaker is the one who is aware of his existential condition, while the crowd is distracted and superficial. Like walking into a roomful of busy, self assured people who seem to have everything under control, and feeling oneself lost, adrift, confused—until one realizes that each and every one of the crowd feels the same way underneath.

[tariki]

Mitchell’s note on the line about being different -- “I am more ordinary. When I am hungry, I eat; when I am tired, I sleep; that’s all. After enlightenment one is still the same as one was before; one is simply free from unreality and delusion. The ordinary person’s mind is the same as the sage’s because Original Mind is perfect and complete in itself.”

 

I agree with Mike’s point that the speaker is the one who is aware of his existential condition, while the crowd is distracted and superficial. Like walking into a roomful of busy, self assured people who seem to have everything under control, and feeling oneself lost, adrift, confused—until one realizes that each and every one of the crowd feels the same way underneath.

 

Its very difficult sometimes to know just how to put forward ideas, my own understanding; yet I strive to understand. Words can be very awkward at times. Anyway, I must say that for me "the writer" speaks from the enlightened state, not from a position that recognises its own "lostness, drifting and confusion". And, again, for me, the whole idea of being the "same" after enlightement as before is beset with some of the most difficult concepts to grasp, at least for me. I'm unable to "grasp" them in a way that would truly "enlighten" me, yet once again, I strive to understand, and seek guidance from the likes of Thomas Merton who explains them in ways that a "westerner" can perhaps find more amenable. To be the same, except to be "free" of "unreality" and "delusion" can be understood in the false sense of "unreality" and "delusion" being defined and objectified in the mind, and then the ego/false self seeking to eradicate them, thus getting caught in the trap that I spoke of before, the trap that Merton spoke of in his essay on Chuang Tzu. The ego cannot enlighten itself, it can only "surrender"........though, again, these are only words.

 

In an "eastern" perspective, this all comes down to the famous "Choosing of the Sixth Patriach" incident in the history of Chan/Zen Buddhism. One wannabee wrote that the mind is like a mirror and one must wipe it clean so that no grain of dust can cling. The winner wrote that there is no mirror so where can any dust cling in the first place?

 

"Samsara IS Nirvana"

[tariki]

I'm not sure just how much others here know of the history of Zen so if this is known then just ignore, but its offered as just a bit of clarification (or maybe further mystification! ) The actual verses I referred to re the "Sixth Patriach" incident were as follows.....

 

The body is the Bodhi-tree

The mind is like a clear mirror standing.

Take care to wipe it all the time,

Allow no grain of dust to cling to it.

 

(Merton remarks.........this indicates a programme of purification would be required)

 

The "winning" verse, by Hui Neng, who became the Sixth Patriach.....

 

The Bodhi is not like a tree,

The clear mirror is nowhere standing.

Fundamentally not one thing exists:

Where then is a grain of dust to cling?

 

(Merton explains that the third line is NOT to be understood as a statement of fundamental principle, nor as a declaration of pantheism, but is a penetrating Buddhist experience)

[Mike]

Very interesting posts. Tariki, I appreciate your thoughts on this and your references to Merton, who I really like.

I recall seeing a video with a Zen master describing Zen as "endless negation" - which I interpret to mean, basically, never reaching an objectified self at which point you can say 'I've got it.' Zen, as with Tao, is about finding no trace of your self anywhere, at which point the true self may arise. A Zen poem that has always stuck in my mind is,

 

If forced to compare

this brief life,

I might declare:

it is like the boat

that left this morning's harbor,

leaving no mark on the world.

 

What I get out of the story of the Sixth Patriarch is that the 'wannabee' was asserting an objectified self, 'a bright mirror standing' over-against the external world, or in this sense the world of thoughts, attachments, and desires (dust). Hui Neng simply negated all such objectification, then, contrary to asserting mere subjectivity, asserted no-thing at all, no trace of a self to be found anywhere.

I claim no expertise or realization in Zen practice so 'what I get out of it' is just that.

 

Peace to you,

Mike

[tariki]

Mike,

 

I think probably "what you are getting out of it" is much the same as myself. It seems - at least to me - better and easier to clarify just what "enlightenment" is not rather than what it is, possibly because I have far more experience of the former! I wasn't really sure just what rivanna actually meant so was rather hesitant in my response. This seems to be just a slight drawback on discussion forums such as this; maybe a lot of things could be clarified and we could all understand each other much better if we could all meet over a glass of wine, or a pint of ale...........(particularly after a couple of pints or two.... )

 

Pure Land Buddhism arose in part as a reaction against certain expressions of "mainstream" Buddhism, which were perceived at the time to be elitist or not particularly suited for those earning a living outside the monastic walls. For me it is a reaction against "programmes" and set practices designed to "gain" enlightenment. Enlightenment is instead seen as something "received", which we grow into naturally as we live our lives day to day. Once again, Thomas Merton is a sure guide......The way of Tao is to begin with the simple good with which one is endowed by the very fact of existence. Instead of self-conscious cultivation of this good (which vanishes when we look at it and becomes intangible when we try to grasp it), we grow quietly in the humilty of a simple, ordinary life, and this way is analogous (at least psychologically) to the Chriatian "life of faith". It is more a matter of believing the good than of seeing it as the fruit of one's effort.

 

I'm really gaining by these discussions and I could rabbit on a lot more, but mercifully for you its now lunch time and jam and muffins call......

 

Derek