The Tao Te Ching

[Mike]

Thought I might do the honors and start talking about the next section...

 

We join spokes together in a wheel,

but it is the center hole

that makes the wagon move.

 

We shape clay into a pot,

but it is the emptiness inside

that holds whatever we want.

 

We hammer wood for a house,

but it is the inner space

that makes it livable.

 

We work with being,

but non-being is what we use.

 

In my limited knowledge of Western philosophy, [Western] metaphysics has always been far more concerned with ‘substance’ than ‘nothing.’ That the question ‘Why is there something rather than nothing?’ is put so often as the ultimate metaphysical question is indicative of this. But I’m not so sure that this question would have occurred to Lao-tsu. It seemed obvious to him that something implies nothing, and nothing implies something. That is why he said not to look for the Tao in this or that. He says ‘being and non-being create each other.’ Like the language of the Tao Te Ching itself, the heart of Reality is fundamentally ambiguous and vague, in the sense that it cannot be turned into an object, cannot be discovered by pinning it down by identifying it as this or that. 'This' is by nature incomplete; the Tao, however, is complete.

I may be wrong about his point here, but perhaps Lao-tsu means to show us that in order for things to have any function (or more abstractly, for them to exist) at all they must share an intrinsic wholeness. A wheel, after all, only functions as a whole, its use cannot be found in the spokes (being), because the wheel is also what it is not: the center hole (non-being). I'm not sure if there is any parallel to this kind of thinking in our scriptures...

[glintofpewter]

11

 

This is the first chapter that didn't seem ethereal, out-of-reach, to me.

 

Jonathan Star's translation adds a complexity to the house image [the Chinese characters for door and windows are in the original text - one of the originals - according to Star]. It is the emptiness of the door that allows us to enter and live in the house.

Walls are joined to make a room

yet only by cutting out a door and a window

can one enter the room and live there.

 

The final line(s):

 

Thus, when a thing has existence alone it is mere dead-weight

Only when it has wu [nothing, emptiness, non-existence] does it have life.

 

As Mike suggested there doesn't seem to be a Biblical parallel in imagery. Vessels and pots are something you make or break and occasionally fill and empty according to a fast look at a concordance. I think the parallel might be in the notion of being filled with the Spirit. The following has some resonance with the end of c. 11:

 

But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Romans 8:10

 

Both texts, I think, suggest that clinging to existence, to things, grasping to possess, striving to put ourselves at the head of the line, is deadening. To have life is to be like a house, a vessel, a wagon wheel: a place for spirit, non-attachment, Tao, Christ.

 

 

Dutch

[JosephM]

A wheel, after all, only functions as a whole, its use cannot be found in the spokes (being), because the wheel is also what it is not: the center hole (non-being). I'm not sure if there is any parallel to this kind of thinking in our scriptures...

 

 

Mike,

 

Possibly the Biblical writings by Paul showing though we are each as members of the body ( head, ears, eyes, hands, etc,) and that the body cannot function as a whole without its individual members is a partial parallel to this section of the Tao.

 

Joseph

[Mike]

To have life is to be like a house, a vessel, a wagon wheel: a place for spirit, non-attachment, Tao, Christ.

 

Very beautifully put, Dutch, I hadn't thought of it like that.

 

Mike,

 

Possibly the Biblical writings by Paul showing though we are each as members of the body ( head, ears, eyes, hands, etc,) and that the body cannot function as a whole without its individual members is a partial parallel to this section of the Tao.

 

Joseph

 

Yes - I can see that I was lacking some imagination when I said I couldn't think of any parallels.

 

In my conservative-fundamentalist days, one of the methods of biblical interpretation we were taught was to compare scripture with scripture. I think what we're doing is such an interesting practice - here we are comparing scripture with scripture... though certainly not in the sense that my former church fellows would approve of.

[soma]

1 Samuel 16:7 (New International Version)

7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

 

We see the spokes and the outer wheel, we usually don't see the hollow center because our eyes can't see nothing. Maybe, the Bible quote is saying God sees without out eyes the center of no-thing where the spirit sees what the physical eyes can't.

[Mike]

Yes - I can see that I was lacking some imagination when I said I couldn't think of any parallels.

 

By the way I hope this didn't sound flippant toward your response Joseph, it just occurred to me after reading this today that it might be read that way. I was being very honest in my remark.

[JosephM]

By the way I hope this didn't sound flippant toward your response Joseph, it just occurred to me after reading this today that it might be read that way. I was being very honest in my remark.

 

Not at all Mike. I appreciate all your comments in this section.

 

Joseph

[rivanna]

The first verse of chapter 11 is like Thomas Merton’s comparison of the world’s great religions to spokes on a wheel, all leading to the same hub.

 

The second verse echoes the analogy of God as the potter shaping us – the idea of all humans, male and female, as vessels—in both the old and new testaments.

 

At first I felt this chapter shows a significant difference between the bible and the Tao. Emptiness is given more emphasis or value in Lao Tzu. I think of how traditional Oriental paintings tend to include a lot of blank or negative space in the composition.

 

But I’m also reminded of the beatitudes Jesus taught --blessed are the poor in spirit, the meek, those who mourn, those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, because that void will be filled only when we acknowledge it within ourselves. One has to identify with emptiness, loss, need, non-being -- open in a spiritual sense, before we can receive God’s presence. It’s also reminiscent of Paul’s saying “when I am weak, I am strong.”

 

The Tao at this point is more about interdependency of opposites, while the sermon on the mount is more about compassion. But to me, both the Tao and the bible often reflect similarly paradoxical views of reality.

[JosephM]

Karen,

 

Your post seems to me to be a very insightful comparison.

 

Joseph

[Mike]

I agree, that was a very beautiful synthesis Rivanna.

[JosephM]

Open for comments on Chapter 12 ....

 

Colors blind the eye.

Sounds deafen the ear.

Flavors numb the taste.

Thoughts weaken the mind.

Desires wither the heart.

 

The Master observes the world

but trusts his inner vision.

He allows things to come and go.

His heart is open as the sky.

[glintofpewter]

12

 

Over-stimulation - the struggle to find peace and balance.

 

The Tao doesn't reject the sensual world just over-consumption.

 

In Chapter 6 All that is comes through the gate of female Hidden Creator. In Star's translation This created world is "the face of the Absolute", "the gate to all things eternal" I think this suggests that contemplation of nature shows us Tao.

 

Yahweh does not live in the processes of nature; he controls them. - Yehezkel Kaufman

 

After Genesis's "And God saw that it was good." Much of the OT seems summed in Kaufman's quote above. I think when God became Love, we returned to the good creation of Genesis.

 

Jesus's "consider the lilies of the field" seems the same call to freedom from worry as the Tao.

 

 

Dutch

[rivanna]

Mitchell’s note on “inner vision” says “There is no inside or outside for the sage. He/she reflects whatever appears without judgment. Whatever happens is all right.” The sage looks upon and treats his/her own emotions with compassion, as if they belonged to a little child. To me it’s sometimes difficult to imagine a mind that is completely non-judgmental, yet also caring and tender. It’s not the same as God in a Christian sense, at least not as I understand it.

 

Jane English’s translation of this chapter includes the line “racing and hunting madden the mind,” which for me captures the tone better. Rejecting busyness and constant stimulation as status symbols or the basis of one’s self esteem is extremely difficult in most cultures, and perhaps it’s been that way since biblical times.

 

The last part reminds me of Henri Nouwen-- “When we are listening to the voices of the world we cannot truly accept ourselves; but when we are willing to listen to the voice of God saying through Jesus that we are fully accepted just as we are, then we are free to grow into our truest selves.”

[JosephM]

At first sight there seems to be no Christian counterpart but when I contemplate more deeply I find...

Chapter 12 of the Tao,

 

Colors blind the eye.

Sounds deafen the ear.

Flavors numb the taste.

Thoughts weaken the mind.

Desires wither the heart.

 

The Master observes the world

but trusts his inner vision.

He allows things to come and go.

His heart is open as the sky.

 

and ......

 

Mathew 6:²⁴No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

²⁵Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

 

Different ways of saying that "emphasis on" filling the senses, seeing (with the natural eyes), hearing (with the natural ears), thinking (with the natural mind), tastings and natural desires of the creature dull our true inner vision of 'life'. Even in Christianity we find that being dulled by emphasis on the senses we will serve the flesh rather than the Spirit and it is the Spirit where true 'life' is found (realized). The flesh, then in a sense, become our master. These two are 'in a human sense' in opposition to each other without inner vision that comes through temperance and less emphasis on the senses and more on inner vision which accepts all things in their place as an observer of creation.

 

Just my take on the chapter.

 

Joseph

[rivanna]

Joseph,

 

Interesting comparison. It raised a question about the text as a whole, for me. Does the Tao make a distinction between the flesh and the spirit? Doesn’t Lao Tzu place the real conflict between the outward “ten thousand things that rise and fall” and the inner stillness that unifies. The concept of a divided self, the physical and the mental/spiritual being opposed to each other comes from Greek philosophy, if I recall correctly– though it did influence the new testament to a degree, as you noted.

[JosephM]

Joseph,

 

Interesting comparison. It raised a question about the text as a whole, for me. Does the Tao make a distinction between the flesh and the spirit? Doesn't Lao Tzu place the real conflict between the outward "ten thousand things that rise and fall" and the inner stillness that unifies. The concept of a divided self, the physical and the mental/spiritual being opposed to each other comes from Greek philosophy, if I recall correctly– though it did influence the new testament to a degree, as you noted.

 

Hi Rivanna,

 

Perhaps he does. To me, it depends on the perspective you view it from. Personally, I see no opposition or conflict because even when the truth is not realized the one comes from the other and therefor is 'in a sense' not in opposition in reality because it is one and the same. Only from the perspective of flesh is there a separation or opposition. Perhaps I did not make that clear.

 

Thanks for the question,

Joseph

[glintofpewter]

Joseph, Rivanna,

 

Let me join your good conversation

 

Matt 6:26 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

 

This whole passage v. 2-33 might be summed up in "Trust me. Relax." I would think this would mean peace but in context here it seems to mean "don't fret the small stuff; we have more important things to do." Jesus paints a peaceful picture of nature to encourage us to stop worrying and trust him because there is a [spiritual] battle to be won.

 

V. 34 Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have come to bring not peace but a sword.

 

My understanding of the flesh as used by Paul is that "flesh" always has negative meanings; it always refers to the sins of the flesh. Paul's not consistent but that is what I see as is his most common view. Spirit and flesh in conflict with the human will. Self control, whose progeny include the love-challenged Protestant Work Ethic of the Puritans, is the answer.

 

we will serve the flesh rather than the Spirit and it is the Spirit where true 'life' is found (realized). The flesh, then in a sense, becomes our master. These two are 'in a human sense' in opposition to each other without inner vision that comes through temperance and less emphasis on the senses

 

Joseph,

I think that is good summation of what I find in the New Testament. The last of your passage seems to me to reflect a more Taoist view than a Christian view in that it is not a rejection of earthy, worldly things, but

 

[...but an] inner vision which accepts all things in their place as an observer of creation.

 

I think this last passage is in line with rivanna's question answer.

 

Does the Tao make a distinction between the flesh and the spirit? Doesn’t Lao Tzu place the real conflict between the outward “ten thousand things that rise and fall” and the inner stillness that unifies.

Jonathan Star translates the first of C. 10:

 

Hold on to the Power of the One

It will unify the body

and merge it with the Spirit

 

Star says a key word here is "p'o", "the dark, physical,earthly, yin soul", and p'o implies "hun", the bright, spiritual, yang soul.

 

The challenge is to hang on to both while experiencing oneness. I think historically many Christians would say the earthy, the flesh needs to be discarded, it holds us back.

 

Rivanna,

 

I think Nouwen quote in some way synthesizes and highlights the Christian and Taoist views. This personal God relationship seems to me the real difference in dealing with over-consumption and over-stimulation - the striving for affirmation and vitality.

 

'... but when we are willing to listen to the voice of God saying through Jesus that we are fully accepted just as we are,...”

 

In both Christian and Tao practices we are told to seek a peaceful place from which to experience the world. The personal relationship with the Godhead is the difference. For Nouwen, being willing to experience God's acceptance through Jesus is the key to our accepting ourselves and the world, body AND soul.

 

 

Peace

Dutch

[soma]

Does the yin yang symbol help at all?

 

 

 

Twelve Laws of Change of the Infinite Universe

 

1. One Infinity manifests itself into complementary and antagonistic tendencies, yin and yang, in its endless change.

2. Yin and yang are manifested continuously from the eternal movement of One Infinite Universe.

3. Yin represents centrifugality*. Yang represents centripetality*. Yin and yang together produce energy and all phenomena.

4. Yin attracts yang. Yang attracts yin.

5. Yin repels yin. Yang repels yang.

6. Yin and yang combined in varying proportions produce different phenomena. The attraction and repulsion among phenomena is proportional to the difference of the yin and yang forces.

7. All phenomena are ephemeral, constantly changing their constitution of yin and yang forces; yin changes into yang, yang changes into yin.

8. Nothing is solely yin or solely yang. Eveything is composed of both tendencies in varying degrees.

9. There is nothing neuter. Either yin or yang is in excess in every occurrence.

10. Large yin attracts small yin. Large yang attracts small yang.

11. Extreme yin produces yang, and extreme yang produces yin.

12. All physical manifestations are yang at the center, and yin at the surface.

[soma]

Yin yang symbol

 

One side we see the spiritual in the shape of a fish and the other side the physical in the shape of the fish. The eye in the spiritual fish is the physical or body and the eye in the physical fish is the spiritual so we have both in each.

[glintofpewter]

soma,

 

thank you for posting this.

Twelve Laws of Change of the Infinite Universe

1. One Infinity manifests itself into complementary and antagonistic tendencies, yin and yang, in its endless change.

 

Of course I like it because it is not either/or but a both/and relationship.

 

Gives me an image that works with

Hold on to the Power of the One

It will unify the body

and merge it with the Spirit

 

Dutch

[Mike]

There is not much I can add to the very interesting and insightful responses to this chapter.

 

Colors blind the eye.

Sounds deafen the ear.

Flavors numb the taste.

Thoughts weaken the mind.

Desires wither the heart.

 

The Master observes the world

but trusts his inner vision.

He allows things to come and go.

His heart is open as the sky.

 

I think this passage is especially poignant in our American society. I wonder what Laotse would have thought of modern life! It seems our senses are too often deadened by the constant bombardment from commercial and entertainment industry. We are hit with an overwhelming quantity of audio and visual stimuli that it becomes a drug against facing life in its simple, yet challenging, essence. Silence is louder than a rock concert in this sense. Many people rather would blow out their eardrums than sit for a moment in silence, undistracted, nothing particular begging their attention, being mindful of what life really is. If we are mindful, I think this "inner vision" begins to surface.

 

2 Corinthians 11:3

 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ.

[glintofpewter]

Mike,

 

2 Corinthians 11:3 is great!

 

dutch

[JosephM]

Thanks for some really insightful and interesting comments by all ... Chapter 13 now Open for comments...

 

Success is as dangerous as failure.

Hope is as hollow as fear.

 

What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?

Whether you go up the ladder or down it,

you position is shaky.

When you stand with your two feet on the ground,

you will always keep your balance.

 

What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?

Hope and fear are both phantoms

that arise from thinking of the self.

When we don't see the self as self,

what do we have to fear?

 

See the world as your self.

Have faith in the way things are.

Love the world as your self;

then you can care for all things.

[Mike]

See the world as your self.

Have faith in the way things are.

Love the world as your self;

then you can care for all things.

 

This text refers to a fundamental shift in identity. 'See the world as self' implies that there is no genuine line of demarcation between our inside and outside. Birth and death are only aspects of a greater, deeper reality which is our true identity. Our own scripture persistently entertains the theme of leaving an old identity behind for a new and greater one. Jesus said "you must be born again."

 

Paul says:

Galatians 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.

 

And again Jesus, in a different context:

Matthew 22:39

'Love your neighbor as your self.'

 

What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?

Hope and fear are both phantoms

that arise from thinking of the self.

When we don't see the self as self,

what do we have to fear?

 

A false sense of self leads to a great many anxieties which take the form of both hope and fear. They arise from wanting the self to perpetuate and attain all its desires. But it is a mistake to think that this (my) one particular body is all that there is to "me." When I no longer identify only with this particular body, but with the Absolute, God, Reality, what is there to fear? Death? My true identity is infinite.

 

What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?

Whether you go up the ladder or down it,

you position is shaky.

 

If success is a strong, motivating factor in one's life, it is just as dangerous as failure. If our priorities are not right, then we are bound to be corrupted and lose ourselves and what really matters. It would be better to keep balanced, both feet on the ground, and not to be concerned with either success or failure.

 

 

Ecclesiastes 2

11 Yet when I surveyed all that my hands had done

and what I had toiled to achieve,

everything was meaningless, a chasing after the wind;

nothing was gained under the sun.

[soma]

Mike, Thanks for the Bible quotes and relating it to the Tao. They are right on and focused.

 

Matter is composed almost entirely of empty space. Most people think the atom is a solid sphere that is a building block for matter, but the atom is mostly space. If we visualize a sports stadium and a grain of rice. The rice in the center of the stadium is the nucleus and it is dense, but the electron that is the outer part of the atom seems to be everywhere at once in the seats surrounding the playing field. Its outer area is the ring of seats in the last row. Everything else in the atom between the rice and outer seats is empty space. The bad thing about this model is that the stadium is filled with air, but the atom is filled with empty space.

 

See the world as your self.

Have faith in the way things are.

Love the world as your self;

then you can care for all things.

 

The empty space I like to refer to it as pure consciousness and see it as the medium that we live and communicate in. I see it as God's all-pervading consciousness that is in all things and people. In the awareness of God’s omnipresence I realize that God is all loving and always present so there is no need to fear either man or his developments because God has full power. It doesn’t matter how negative or bad life can be because I can dive deep into the God's all pervading consciousness and find protection from the flood of negative experiences. Any spiritual practice that shifts the awareness to the unity of all things in emptiness or God's pure consciousness satisfies this basic spiritual need by acting as a counter-weight to the ever increasing nervous, mental and physical tensions in modern life. This counteraction to the deterioration caused by our daily fight for survival helps us to grow healthier and more relaxed as we become calm, less inclined to agitation, frustration and a bad frame of mind.

 

What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?

Hope and fear are both phantoms

that arise from thinking of the self.

When we don't see the self as self,

what do we have to fear?

 

To me it says eliminate psychological attachment to the nucleus and electron and see the vast pure consciousness in between. By identifying with the reality of pure consciousness, hope and fear disappear because they are only parts of the nucleus and electron. Daily we can lose ourselves in the ocean of pure consciousness where we find everything in emptiness.

 

What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?

Whether you go up the ladder or down it,

you position is shaky.

 

I can concentrate on the nucleus, which can have a positive or neutral charge or the electron with a negative charge, but either way I am missing the vast pure consciousness that is all pervading. We think space is mostly space, now I realize that earth and creation are also mostly space. I have found that my mind goes from thought to idea to the manifestation of that idea so my mind attracts to it what it thinks about. If I fear something I am thinking about that fear so intensely that I attract it to me. In the same respect if I concentrate on material success I bring material success, but lose sight of its value which is intrinsic. I think the object brought happiness when that happiness is within me. The object didn't bring it.