The Tao Te Ching

[tariki]

When you realize where you come from,

you naturally become tolerant,

 

Another couple of lines that snagged me. From my own experience, when I have sought to be "forgiving" or "tolerant", based opon "ego" - on my own sense of worth or rightness - I have just seemed to enter a never-ending spiral of self-righteousness. Despite the condescending attempt to "forgive" I only experience separation. I think there needs to be a deep and fundamental realisation that all of us have the same "source", that we can only stand because the ultimate reality is mercy,not judgement. Becasue that ultimate reality is our source there can be no grounds for judgement of anyone. William Blake said.....mutual forgiveness of each vice opens the gates of paradise Just how such "mutual forgiveness" arises is the great mystery, there seems no path that can be described and followed, no certitude in any scripture or text. But reflecting upon the source as "mercy", as "infinite compassion" seems one way, at least it has done to me. And the more our own wayward hearts are conformed to such a reality, the greater clarity with which we can truly see - and even "judge" - the world around/within us. And sometimes toleration does seem to come naturally, rather than being forced and worn like a badge of honour!

 

Neither speak ill of others, nor well of yourself.

The moment you open

Your mouth to speak,

The autumn wind stirs

And chills your lips

 

(

[Mike]

To add to this soul centered life beyond the ego-center, one sees himself or herself in other people's soul center so they naturally become more tolerant. The ego-center thinks they are the center of the universe and there is only one center thanks to our spatial conditioning. The soul centered person sees many centers linked in what science recognizes as connected in a sting theory.

 

This is an intriguing observation Soma. What you say about 'many centers' reminds me of what Relativity theory says about there being no privileged frame of reference. Our senses create an illusion that we are the center of the universe.

 

In these verses seems to me to be hid a great mystery and is the source of great peace in its knowledge. To me, its counterpart in Christianity is....

 

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in (Christ): Eph 1:9-10 (KJV)

 

In a sense, All things come from God and all things return to God. Not as though there is really anywhere to go or return to but for purposes of useful understandable written communication only.

 

Just my thought on the subject

Joseph

 

Acts 17:28 came to mind after reading this:

 

'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

 

 

Just trying to find my story -

 

Before becoming God and I are one

Becoming I am with God

After becoming God and I are one

 

 

Dutch

 

 

To my mind this seems to be a brief centering meditation or prayer. I like it.

 

My own mind does quite a bit of straying and returning - the current verse speaks of stumbling in confusion and sorrow. There is a small verse from Shinran's works that I often reflect upon and bring me inspiration, consolation and assurance......

 

 

My eyes being hindered by blind passions,

I cannot perceive the light that grasps me;

Yet the great compassion, without tiring,

Illumines me always.

 

 

It tells me that though I "let go", though I and my mind wander, I am nevertheless always held within the light of infinite compassion, or "the source", Reality-as-is.

 

Hi Tariki,

I've recently begun looking into Pureland and I find there to be a few strong parallels between it and Christianity. The verse you quote easily speaks to me as a Christian, thanks for sharing.

 

 

 

 

Peace to you all,

Mike

[rivanna]

These verses seem to focus again on the importance of staying centered and detached.

 

Mitchell’s note on chapter 16 says “empty your mind doesn’t mean suppress your thoughts, but step back from them, away from self consciousness. The mind should be open as a mirror, reflecting all things, not retaining the thing after it is gone. Originally our minds were empty.”

 

This reminded me of I Corinthians, “What do you have that you did not receive?”

Also the idea of Jesus’ kenosis in Philippians 2, “Christ emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, he humbled himself…”

 

Perhaps there is also resonance with some bible verses on serenity and keeping in touch with one’s deepest being, such as “Banish anxiety from your mind” (Ecclesiastes) and “be not anxious for anything…the peace of God which surpasses all understanding will keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus” (Philippians).

[soma]

Christian contemplatives tell us of a possibility of unity with God, who is in our minds and hearts. The contemplatives, the people who post on this thread and the Tao explains how we come close to this unity when we empty our mind. I agree we need to get rid of all the labels for ourselves and others. St. John of the Cross warns of about this emptying process as a kind of dark night of the soul. God is already with us waiting so the dark night of the soul is a time when we take of the labels and get naked before God. It is a dark time because we are shedding our old self for a new enlighten self. I say enlightened because it brings the light so we see and know that God always was, is,and will be with us. The dark night of the mind brings the light so we see the invisible God, therefore; it changes our fear, anxiety and blame to love. The dark night stops our attempt to control God, and trains one’s mind to seek God in all things, the poor, the sick and the outcast. There is no preference because the empty mind sees God everywhere. Emptying the mind is also a suggestion of Meister Eckhart who even advises us to let go of our “religious” or “spiritual” thoughts about God. On another thread many of you said you didn't feel spiritual or mystical, I think you are all following this process as stated. I think you are spiritual because your post speak to my spirit, sometimes through my intellect, but most of the post are a direct communication to my spirit and I thank you for that.

 

Applying this to my spiritual practice, I now realize that I pray, contemplate, meditate, fast, sing and dance not to become enlightened or spiritual because God is already sitting next to me smiling. There is nothing to accomplish, therefore; my spiritual practice is just an expression of my spirit. We can not fail to know God. As spiritual aspirants we only need to stop deluding our minds or kicking up mud. "Let God's will be done."

[rivanna]

On another thread, Tariki mentioned linear time – something I have been wondering about in relation to the Tao as a philosophy.

 

It seems the Judeo-Christian view of history is linear (though linear time may well be only a construct of the mind). The term progressive implies linear time-- extending the kingdom or realm of God’s justice to more of the world. In the bible, history moves from a fallen paradise to an apocalypse where God defeats the powers of evil, to a “new heaven and new earth” or celestial city where “every tear will be wiped away.” For the Christian sensibility, you could say that faith means a basic trust that goodness (love, justice, peace) will ultimately prevail.

 

In almost every stanza, the Tao reflects a cyclical concept of the cosmos, an eternal process of expansion and contraction. World events occur in repeating cycles. There is no duality of good / evil; matter and spirit are inseparable, the divine is ever present in each particle of the universe. So for the Taoist, perhaps faith or trust comes from being in harmony with nature as a balance of complementary yin/yang aspects. (Would this be an accurate way of putting it?)

 

My guess is both the bible and the Tao were written because people need a basic sense of direction, some guiding principle for living. Because of the culture I was raised in, I am more sustained by reading the bible; but the Tao’s perspective on human / natural history often seems more convincing.

[JosephM]

On another thread, Tariki mentioned linear time – something I have been wondering about in relation to the Tao as a philosophy.

 

It seems the Judeo-Christian view of history is linear (though linear time may well be only a construct of the mind). The term progressive implies linear time-- extending the kingdom or realm of God's justice to more of the world. In the bible, history moves from a fallen paradise to an apocalypse where God defeats the powers of evil, to a "new heaven and new earth" or celestial city where "every tear will be wiped away." For the Christian sensibility, you could say that faith means a basic trust that goodness (love, justice, peace) will ultimately prevail.

 

In almost every stanza, the Tao reflects a cyclical concept of the cosmos, an eternal process of expansion and contraction. World events occur in repeating cycles. There is no duality of good / evil; matter and spirit are inseparable, the divine is ever present in each particle of the universe. So for the Taoist, perhaps faith or trust comes from being in harmony with nature as a balance of complementary yin/yang aspects. (Would this be an accurate way of putting it?)

 

My guess is both the bible and the Tao were written because people need a basic sense of direction, some guiding principle for living. Because of the culture I was raised in, I am more sustained by reading the bible; but the Tao's perspective on human / natural history often seems more convincing.

 

Hi Karen,

 

Very interesting summary. Perhaps the Bible does contains more people pleasing myths than the Tao and in my view only strengthen ones false sense of self? Doesn't it seem a bit ludicrous that a God that is all powerful and created all would even have enemies that needed to be defeated? To me, it seems more like the ego of man sitting in the temple of God speaking as if it were God.

 

Yes, it does seem like the Bible is a more sustaining read for many individuals yet not very convincing under close examination. And it seems to me, that the foundation for an arising of a "new earth", it speaks of is a "new heaven" which has more to do with awakened consciousness in my view than a physical place. It seems to me that nothing in the linear future can make us free or wipe away our tears because a future event has no meaning because awakening is always a present moment. If a new heaven and earth is not arising in this moment, then it is but a future thought in ones head and therefore not arising at all. Perhaps that is why Jesus is recorded saying... the kingdom of heaven is 'at hand' and again 'within you or in the midst of you' and 'comes not with observation'. (ocular evidence)

 

Perhaps this is why this chapter of the Tao says... to empty your mind of all thoughts and let your heart be at peace.

Watch the turmoil of beings but contemplate their return.

 

Perhaps in doing so, we will be at peace and realize that in linear time all things have an order and that which is purposed already prevails. This is not to say sit back and do nothing but rather to act appropriately out of that perspective and fulfill your purpose here.

 

Just some thoughts triggered by your response,

Joseph

[rivanna]

Joseph,

 

Thanks for your thoughts--hopefully you didn’t think I was being judgmental, when I was trying to point out what is so refreshing and helpful about the Tao’s perspective on history and the universe.

 

I probably read the bible in a poetic way most Christians would not accept

[JosephM]

Joseph,

 

Thanks for your thoughts--hopefully you didn't think I was being judgmental, when I was trying to point out what is so refreshing and helpful about the Tao's perspective on history and the universe.

 

I probably read the bible in a poetic way most Christians would not accept

 

 

Not at all Karen,

 

Actually, i thought it made some very good points and summarized the different perceptions very well.

 

Joseph

[soma]

Rivanna, Nice insight, which I am sure will take us on another journey that will be linear and circular. I feel many Christians view Christianity and the Bible as one dimensional and in a linear fashion because that is the way we are taught to organize our thoughts in a deductive way of thinking. A equals B and B equal c so A equals C. Our calendar is also set up in a linear way, but it can also be viewed as circular because it rotates with the seasons. I think the Bible can also be viewed as circular or multi-dimensional.

 

Ecclesiastes 1:4 (New International Version)

Generations come and generations go,

but the earth remains forever.

 

Ecclesiastes 1:5 (New International Version)

The sun rises and the sun sets,

and hurries back to where it rises.

 

Ecclesiastes 1:6 (New International Version)

The wind blows to the south

and turns to the north;

round and round it goes,

ever returning on its course.

 

Ecclesiastes 1:7 (New International Version)

All streams flow into the sea,

yet the sea is never full.

To the place the streams come from,

there they return again.

 

I was going to only post one verse, but these versus are so beautiful and Tao like. Linear thinking is very clear and logical. It helps us to understand many concepts. Circular thinking helps us to go beyond logic and understand relationships and complexities that are so subtle we feel them with intuition rather than think of them. I like to see the Bible written in code. Linear thinkers will gain knowledge and so will circular thinkers. Web thinkers will switch back and forth and gain even more insight.

 

 

8 All things are wearisome,

more than one can say.

The eye never has enough of seeing,

nor the ear its fill of hearing.

 

9 What has been will be again,

what has been done will be done again;

there is nothing new under the sun.

 

10 Is there anything of which one can say,

"Look! This is something new"?

It was here already, long ago;

it was here before our time.

 

11 There is no remembrance of men of old,

and even those who are yet to come

will not be remembered

by those who follow.

 

................................

 

18 For with much wisdom comes much sorrow;

the more knowledge, the more grief.

 

The problem is how do we get out of the linear thinking that leads to circular thinking. How do we get out of the wheel of life and death. The wheel keep turning; life coming from death and death from life. I feel we need to find the center of the wheel where there is neither linear nor circular thinking because the Spirit is empty of such thoughts. Many churches are very good at the linear rhetoric about Jesus because they are founded on a certain doctrine about his teachings. I feel this pattern of thinking diverts the Christians who want a relationship with Christ beyond the mind from that center of no thought. Most of us here have spent time in institutional churches where we were diverted, when we wanted a deeper and more rewarding experience with Our Lord. Progressive Christians have followed Jesus beyond the traditional boundaries and have found some measure of peace where God and empty mind are acknowledged universally in peace and love. We are beyond the fruitless debate about Jesus, but some of us I feel are in training to encounter the debate again to help others. We can help, assist and love our Christian brothers by being the best Christians we can be. Praying, contemplating, meditating, emptying the mind of opinions, not judging and just being who Our Lord wants us to be will raise the consciousness of the church and the world. The problem is how do we hold on to that center. Thank God we have each other.

[rivanna]

Soma,

 

Thanks for your response.

Ecclesiastes is a good example of cyclical perspective.

Parts of the bible I value as a linear progression, like the concept of God changing from harsh judge to tender-hearted parent; but other parts (like the book of Revelation with its violent imagery) I avoid completely.

I agree “we need to find the center of the wheel where there is neither linear nor circular thinking because the Spirit is empty of such thoughts.” As you suggest, the two visions of time are one more polarity that the Tao transcends.

[JosephM]

Some wonderful insightful posts

I hope others not participating are benefiting also.....

 

Chapter 17 now open for comments ....

 

When the Master governs, the people

are hardly aware that he exists.

Next best is a leader who is loved.

Next, one who is feared.

The worst is one who is despised.

 

If you don't trust the people,

you make them untrustworthy.

 

The Master doesn't talk, he acts.

When his work is done,

the people say, "Amazing:

we did it, all by ourselves!"

[glintofpewter]

The Master doesn't talk, he acts.

When his work is done,

the people say, "Amazing:

we did it, all by ourselves!"

 

I have been thinking about these lines for a few days. During this reflection I recognized that many of the Verses in the Tao Te Ching are worthy of contemplation and "unpacking."

 

Our pastor of 7 years received a call to So. California last month. My church was his first pastorate out of seminary. Part of his story of his time here is that, for the first three or so years, he tried to fix everything and everybody. Then he realized that 1) He didn't have enough time to fix it all, and, 2) It wasn't working; broken things and broken people stayed broken. In the last half of his time here he would sit with the problem or the distressed or ill person providing a comforting presence or any insight but made no effort to be a rescuer. He provided guidance for the leadership as they developed a permission giving structure; when he found an open mind he would suggest new direction. It wasn't about him; it was about us. He still acted out of love for the people and the church but he wasn't co-dependent.

 

I believe that we need prophets, whether it is a school teacher who won't give up her standards for performance and her conviction that any method is worthwhile IF it results in true learning , or a Martin Luther King who not only modeled non-violent resistance but became the voice of the civil rights struggle. Those who participated know that the change would not have happened without themselves, AND it would not of happened in that time and in that place without the actions, the encouragement and the prophetic voice of Martin Luther King. Many of the organizations, like SNCC, also were the result of one or two people saying, "Why don't we do this?"

 

I heard interviews this last week with basketball players talking about their coaches. "He helped us focus," or "He showed us how to be a team," they agreed. Very often we cannot be the best that we can be without such coaches or teachers or prophets; we know we did the work and made the effort but we couldn't have done without their voice, their modeling, their encouragement. As a result lives and systems are changed.

 

Prophets and people; we remember them both.

 

Dutch

[tariki]

I'm a bit ambivalent about "masters", even more so about their actual existence! A translation of the Tao Teh Ching that I have uses the word "ruler" rather than master - and whether Lao Tzu actually had any genuine experience of the types of ruler (or "master") spoken of in this current chapter I haven't a clue. Anyway, Chuang Tzu touches upon the same idea when he says......."That which acts on all and meddles in none - is heaven" I think this brings me closer to my own take on the verses, or at least on some of its ideas. Not relating it to any actual ruler, or even any earthly type of rule, but rather just how the "source" - or the "tao" - operates within/as our world, how we wayward humans are touched and guided to our best advantage, how our egos are tamed - or even realised as non-existent!! It just seems to me that we can sometimes waste our time looking for those to love or emulate, or seeking our inspiration from "saints" and their great acts of piety or self-sacrifice. In seeking the great it seems easy to miss the small.

 

How does the "tao" rule and guide in our world? I remember some autobiographical memories of Desmond Tutu. He was speaking of his childhood, of a gesture by a white man, Father Trevor Huddlestone. Desmond Tutu spoke of how an uneducated black woman like his own mother counted for very little......

 

In the eyes of the world this lovely person was a nonetity. I was standing with her on the hostel verandah when this tall white man, in a flowing black cassock, swept past. He doffed his hat to my mother in greeting. I was quite taken aback; a white man raising his hat to a black woman! Such things did not happen in real life. That gesture left an indelible impression. Perhaps it helped deep down to make me realize we were precious to God and to this white man; perhaps it helped me not to become anti-white, despite the harsh treatment we received at the hands of most white people.

 

Looking back at the history of South Africa, of just how the spiral of violence was ended, why certain black leaders were able to resist humiliating the whites in turn.......the doffing of a hat! Father Trevor Huddlestone was not seeking to "meddle", to impress, to "rule" or even to "guide" yet by a gentle ripple of cause and effect our world was touched/redeemed/enlightened, if only in a small way. To me, this is how the Tao infuses our world.

 

Well, maybe I've strayed from the true intent and meaning of the words! (I think perhaps the beginning of the next chapter........When the great Tao is forgotten, goodness and piety appear point the true way, but I musn't preempt JoesephM or I'll be in touble!) But I read the verses and thought as I did.

[soma]

I feel our true leaders, masters and rulers are servants of the people. Therefore; they are behind the people, not in front of them, empowering and serving their needs. Leaders are really facilitators who utilize the various skills of the people around them. They support and stand behind great orators and statesmen/women. Thank you for the example in South Africa. Even a side glance or smile gives support.

 

The Master doesn't talk, he acts.

When his work is done,

the people say, "Amazing:

we did it, all by ourselves!"

[JosephM]

In experience, I see the application of the principles in chapter 17 very applicable concerning leadership or managing a business or work group. The master to me is merely the teacher or leader and he leads by example (actions) and his main job is a servant to those under him, removing obstacles so that they can do and excel at their assigned jobs. To me it is about delegation and trust and in a sense working yourself out of a job. To me, this seems most effective. At one time, this creature here was very successful at this and as a result able to retire at a young age.

 

Tariki, you can preempt me at any time. At your prompt here, we move on to Chapter 18 which is open for comments....

 

 

When the great Tao is forgotten,

goodness and piety appear.

When the body's intelligence declines,

cleverness and knowledge step forth.

When there is no peace in the family,

filial piety begins.

When the country falls into chaos,

patriotism is born.

 

 

Joseph

[rivanna]

Mitchells note on chapter 18 sums it up well for me: When the Tao is forgotten people act according to rules, not from the heart. This goodness is as insecure as Jobs, and can be as self- satisfied at Little Jack Horners. Whereas a good person has no intention of being good; he/she just acts naturally.

 

Besides the book of Job there could perhaps be a parallel to Pauls passages on law and grace: no one will be justified by the works of the law….the one who is righteous will live by faith (Galatians) the same contrast between anxiously striving to obey every rule, and the childs trusting self-acceptance.

 

In the Tao, though, the original, blessed state of humanity seems more like the bibles redeemed, new covenant phase, rather than the innocence of the garden of Eden. (Maybe this is what Lao Tsu would call overthinking!)

 

From D. C. Laus comments on this stanza: Rectitude is favoring right and rejecting wrong. When I forget that right and wrong, like good and bad, produce each other, I end up favoring rectitude, which is linear as opposed to circular. Circular as an approach to life is difficult to accept because it doesnt get me anywhere, it feels like loss or death. I suppose the fear of this compels me to take a stand in rectitude and benevolence. It takes faith to trust the circular nature of the great way.

[tariki]

 

 

Tariki, you can preempt me at any time. At your prompt here, we move on to Chapter 18 which is open for comments....

 

 

 

Joseph

 

Ah, you may well live to regret such an open invitation........................

 

I was just having a peep at the "afterlife" thread and pondering the various posts. It seems that concentrating upon the kingdom of earth and seeking to initiate justice there (or here?) is the preferred theme, rather than anticipating "pie in the sky" or looking for some sort of "reward" for our efforts and sacrifices! All this has my full sympathy and I woundnt wish to argue against it. However, I must also say that in my experience it is the search for "wisdom"/"understanding" that is the foundation of the "spiritual" (ugh!) life, and that compassion/love/deeds of love are the by-products of this search. It may just be me, but I've found that any self-conscious effort to be "good" or act "lovingly" results in unavoidable feelings of self-righteousness, even separation from others in "judgement", certainly not in empathy. True deeds of love are for me grounded inevitable in mutuality and communion, the mutual recognition of our own needs and failures........a recognition that issues from "wisdom" and true understanding. Reaching across rather than reaching down.

 

A Buddhist writer, Edward Conze, gave the following as his defintion of "wisdom"..............the mind/heart thirsting for emancipation, seeing direct into the heart of reality. For me, all other things are by-products of this wisdom, and direct frontal assaults on fear of death, grief, or even the attempt to develope compassion can come to naught.

 

So for me there is a lot of mileage in the saying "Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven and all things will be added unto you". And thats without interpreting the phrase "kingdom of heaven" to make it more earthy!! I think sometimes the attempts by people to create utopias on earth have always floundered, perhaps by meddling too much. Too much fine tuning!

 

I'm not claiming here that my own search for wisdom has had any great result! Nevertheless, this is the way I see it. And reading the current verse from the Tao de Ching seems to suggest something along these lines, in as much as when we fall from the spontaneous way of the Tao, where "no working is true working", we enter the realm of "right and wrong" and our own ego's attempts to judge what is what and give it names.

 

Well, thats it, for good or worse..........

[JosephM]

Tariki,

 

I would echo your sentiments exactly. Perhaps you should post that comment in that area? To me, Proper action does not come out of seeking to do 'good' but rather from a place of harmony inside.

 

Joseph

 

P.S. Having said that, it also appears to me that those who put unconditional love of others first, even if sometimes incorrectly placed, will arrive at the same place in time. So perhaps, the path of the mind and the path of the heart, in my view merge.

[soma]

When the great Tao is forgotten,

goodness and piety appear.

 

Matthew 6

“Watch out! Don’t do your good deeds publicly, to be admired by others, for you will lose the reward from your Father in heaven."

 

I think it says do things with an inward principle, bliss is the reward even if it is not sought.

[JosephM]

Karen,

 

I really like your whole last post. It was said so well and spoke to me well.

Your statement "it feels like loss or death" says much and I like your Mitchell's note and the Christian parallels.

 

Thanks,

Joseph

[tariki]

Tariki,

 

 

 

P.S....... it also appears to me that those who put unconditional love of others first, even if sometimes incorrectly placed, will arrive at the same place in time. So perhaps, the path of the mind and the path of the heart, in my view merge.

 

JosephM,

 

I wasnt really seeking to distinguish between two paths,one of the mind and one of the heart, and was certainly not seeking to argue for any one over the other. Unless we enter a monastic community, we live within the world and have to act within it, and obviously we should seek to act with some degree of love towards others. For me "wisdom" is realised through the working of grace as we so live and act within the world, by infinite ways that can never be adequately understood or charted. Really I was more arguing against the "busy, busy, lets get busy" orientation, and even more, when such an orientation is totally divorced from any sense of openess to the working of the divine/grace within our own hearts and our own need for the "mercy" of Reality-as-is.

[JosephM]

JosephM,

 

I wasnt really seeking to distinguish between two paths,one of the mind and one of the heart, and was certainly not seeking to argue for any one over the other. Unless we enter a monastic community, we live within the world and have to act within it, and obviously we should seek to act with some degree of love towards others. For me "wisdom" is realised through the working of grace as we so live and act within the world, by infinite ways that can never be adequately understood or charted. Really I was more arguing against the "busy, busy, lets get busy" orientation, and even more, when such an orientation is totally divorced from any sense of openess to the working of the divine/grace within our own hearts and our own need for the "mercy" of Reality-as-is.

Tariki,

 

I was in total agreement with your post and believe I understood you most accurately. neither did i think you were looking for an argument of one over the other. i was just adding my own little tidbit as a PS.

 

joseph

[Mike]

This is probably the best extended conversation I’ve ever witnessed on an internet forum. I regret I haven’t participated very much for these last few chapters, but I've still gotten the benefit of reading everybody's thoughtful and challenging meditations and thoughts. If I may I'd just like to comment on something in one of Soma's posts:

 

How do we get out of the wheel of life and death. The wheel keep turning; life coming from death and death from life. I feel we need to find the center of the wheel where there is neither linear nor circular thinking because the Spirit is empty of such thoughts.

 

Hi Soma,

I was doing a little reading on the Bhagavadgita, and your words drew a connection with something I was reading. It is claimed in this Hindu text that all acts of devotion to God have no karma attached, because God himself is beyond/behind karma - beyond time, change, and category (in some sense then the world of karma is illusion and God is the truth). Now, this is a religious proclamation about the nature of non-duality, not a philosophical argument for it. And as such, to me, it expresses the reality of a subjective awareness of, or union with, God, as best as any metaphor I have ever encountered. What I’m tying in to this is your statement about finding the 'center of the wheel.' By being in the center of the wheel you have escaped or transcended the cycle of birth and death - karma. It is my understanding, then, that to be 'at the center of the wheel' is to be 'one with God.' Our actions will be 'devotion' to God (or awareness of God, or in unison with God), having transcended karma and the world of birth and death because the wholeness of reality is manifest or accessed.

 

I hope this wasn't too off topic at this point, but the parallel here between Soma's post, the Tao Te Ching, and the Bhagavadgita struck me.

 

Peace to you,

Mike

[tariki]

Tariki,

 

I was in total agreement with your post and believe I understood you most accurately. neither did i think you were looking for an argument of one over the other. i was just adding my own little tidbit as a PS.

 

joseph

 

JosephM,

 

No need for fisticuffs then.............and I've put you back on my Christmas Card List.

 

 

 

And I'm glad that Mike has sailed in with a few thoughts that take us back a bit in the thread............sometimes I think things move on just a little bit fast. My mind seems to take a while to truly assimilate ideas and insights and sometimes things get left just a bit undigested! At the time when the discussion revolved around "time", linear, circular (or spiral?!) I just happened to be walking into work and noticed a couple of bunches of flowers that had been left tied to the stanchions of a bridge beside a main road. I took a look and there was a little note of remembrance attached, witnessing to a life that had been lost there a year before. The bunches of flowers looked so poignant, and I was struck by the thought of just how important time and place can be to us. Ultimately I think that nothing that has been said here contradicts this or would seek to deny it, but it just seems, at least to me, worth reflecting upon and allowing the thought to settle and be understood.

[JosephM]

Well Tariki and All,

Since you want to drag your feet

 

You know I really have to say again I liked the post of Rivanna's when she said ...

 

Mitchell’s note on chapter 18 sums it up well for me: “When the Tao is forgotten people act according to rules, not from the heart. This goodness is as insecure as Job’s, and can be as self- satisfied at Little Jack Horner’s. Whereas a good person has no intention of being good; he/she just acts naturally.”

 

It brought me back to the garden of Eden where mankind choose to eat from the 'tree of knowledge of good and evil' rather than the 'tree of life'. I see the tree of knowledge of good and evil as acting from rules/laws. I think Paul hints at it when he is recorded saying...

 

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by [/url]the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:19-20 (KJV)

 

 

It seems to me a necessary obstacle for the consciousness of men to pass through. (the law whether written or unwritten) In a sense it was our "schoolmaster" to bring us unto what we Christians call Christ. ref: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, Gal 3:24 (KJV)

 

One that is now free from the law has no intention of being good but rather acts out of harmony with the the One through Christ. ( or Buddha or the Tao etc ) Just a couple more tidbits with no charge.

 

 

Joseph