fatherman

There's a lot to chew on here, friends. More than I can chew tonight! I will respond simply by saying that there is no way to know the private thoughts and intentions of a martyr. He said a few things to his disciples that indicate that he was holding certain intentions about his impending death. But it becomes a matter of faith whether you believe what was written about him. It defies logic and reason, and those things are important.

"The problem is that Christianity seems to be nothing special." What's special about Christianity is that it's a story about a god who is all powerful, all knowing, the creator of all, and yet was willing to become like one of us in order to know us, to show us what love is, to suffer with us, to laugh with us, to be fragile and finite, and to die for us. What other religion has a god like that? Now, if you look to Christ as a wisdom tradition, then I can see why you might take that perspective. Jesus taught stuff that other wise people have taught. Don't misunderstand me.I don't think you have to believe this theology to be a Christian. The important thing is that you live your life as Christ did. Serve the world. Love the world. Forgive each other. At the end of the day with any religion or belief system, you have to ask yourself "Does it make me more loving?"

Just wanted to wish peace to all of my old friends here. I owe you a lot.

I agree with you that we've always had the power within ourselves to be one with God, but think about the climate in which Jesus lived. The possibility of a personal relationship with God was remote. It was all about following rules. I really think Jesus wanted to make a powerful impression on us about who God is and that he wants us to have a personal relationship with him no matter how good we are at following the rules. This is were Christianity truly shines as a religion. A God who is willing to be made vulnerable so that we can know him better, and that no matter what we do, we can still be loved by him. This has made all the difference in the world in my life.

Another perspective. We have a God who so wants to be apart of our lives that God became a human and lived breathed and died in a very public way for us to see. God's deepest desire is to be reconciled to us. Becoming human is key to that plan. The cross was a very powerful event that still speaks to us 2000 years later. This man who is an incarnation of our God was willing to be the true lamb of passover so that our sacrifices for atonement would no long be necessary. If you need grace and reconciliation, you know longer need to make a trade or sacrifice of some sort. All you have to do is call on the name of Jesus and be made whole again. Eyes on the prize folks. Forget all the mumbo jumbo on this matter. The meaning of the whole thing is that God wants to be reconciled to us in love. If you find power in the blood...great. If the whole idea of substitution seems absurd to you, just hold to love and grace. As far as sin goes. Perhaps you don't feel sinful and therefore find grace to be irrelevant. But I promise you, when you've truly sinned in a big way, like I have, grace is everything.

I'm really interested in this notion that Spirit has no needs. If that's true then perhaps it's the other way around. Our needs are met by Spirit (i.e. the specific pattern of Godstuff that we eminate from), rather than something meeting our spiritual needs. If our Spirit needs anything, it's for us to get the hell out of the way!

Aletheia told me that she sometimes forgets her birthday. Let's not let her forget it today! Many, many, many blessings upon you, friend!

It's freaky that you wrote this, soma, because early this week on another forum I wrote:

Couldn't saying one belief perspective is right and one is wrong be kind of like say "I'm not a teenager, therefore being a teenager is not the right way to be" or "Being a teenager just doesn't work for me". We are who we are at the right time and in the right place, but until we embrace and accept it we cannot embrace and accept each other. Your prescription, soma, is an elixir for peace and happiness in the world, buddy.

Nice phrase, ebloomer!

Welcome back, friend. Still taking in your words. Important lessons to be learned here.

Undone, This is a challenging question. For many the answer will be no. For me, my deconstruction ultimately led me to a more intimate and real connection with the divine. Throwing off the old ways, freed me up to experience something real and now. Eventually, it brought me full circle. I found that the old ways had new meaning for me. Only time will tell for you, friend. Perhaps you will find what you are looking for in the human bonds that you create or maybe you'll have an all out spiritual awakening. Remember, part of this kind of journey is being open to something new. Good luck. Fatherman

Friends, I might not post much for awhile, but I will continue doing some focused prayer work on each of you who signed up. If time matters to you, I generally spend 9:30 to 10:00 am on week days (CST). Fatherman

Yes! That's what it's all about. I used to try to 'pray unceasingly' without setting aside special time for prayer as well, but I couldn't make it work. For me, it has to grow out of my special prayer time. I believe Jesus' model for retreat and return is necessary. What bothers me even more than folks putting the focus on the material is folks who use it as a way to judge another's faith. He's rich, he must have strong faith, he's poor he must have poor faith. The truth is, there are other ways of being rich and other ways of being poor. I think we are seeing eye-to-eye here.

Bobve2, I'm so grateful for your participation. I intend to continue as well. Fatherman

I understand your point, and that's why I struggle with this preoccupation with stuff. But how can you limit Abundance? Stuff happens...why resist it?

I guess the central idea here is Trust.

Intriguing. I really liked "Real Magic", by Wayne Dyer. I'm a big fan of Wayne Dyer and his methods, but I prefer to temper his stuff with Christian values (guilt, denial, sacrifice,etc). His stuff isn't anti-Christian or anything, it just focuses a lot on the magic of getting what you want. A few more words about this form of prayer. When we connect consciously with the Source of all creation (let's call it the Stream) we enter the world of the infinite. The Stream does not know scarcity. It only knows abundance. It's enough just to connect. It's Will is to meet your highest needs (think hierarchy of needs here, not David need's a new BMW). I don't always know what I really need, but the Stream (or God) does. That's why connecting or becoming consciously open to the Stream and praying Thy Will Be Done is sufficient for powerful transformation. So the Stream is concerned with what is ultimately best for me, but being created in God's image we are Creators as well. We can surrender our lives over purely to the divine Will, or we can put forth our own will into the Stream. Connecting to the stream is a symbol for an altered or elevated state of consciousness, similar to a dream state but fully conscious. In dreams, our desires are instantly made manifest. While connected to the Stream, a powerfully expressed desire can also be made manifest. This is how yogis and fakirs perform their magic. This is also how we exist right at this moment. We are emanating from God's will and desire for us to exist. I've gone deep enough into this subject here to pose the question. As a Christian, should I be practicing manifestion/magic to get what I want? Just cause I can, does that mean I should? In some ways, I'm a good old puritan. "Folks shouldn't be able to get everything they WANT! If that happened then EVERYbody would be happy!" (a little wordy today...sorry)

Sorry, Aletheia. Crude reference for "having balls". By having balls, (I don't mean to be sexist, here) I mean having guts/courage. Maybe it's an Oklahoma thing.

I would argue that prosperity has it's place. This scripture hints as to where. "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." To Jesus, prosperity is not the goal. Godly living is the goal. This is how our needs are met. The blessing of prosperity is a byproduct of Godly or 'in tune' living.

This girl wears her ovaries on the outside! Magick, to me, is one of those secret words that I'm afraid to say among my Christian friends (conservative or progressive), I see no difference in a good spell and a good prayer. I'm not Wiccan, but I do appreciate especially the highly principled approach they take to magick. Their rule (if I'm not mistake), is that a spell should never be used to manipulate someone (especially not without their permission). Many traditional Christian prayers are highly manipulative. "Lord, please make my brother repent from his sin." "Lord, please bring a man into my sister's life." Until our will is entirely in line with God's will, how can we pray like this? Well, I suppose it doesn't hurt ask, does it? Hmmm...at the very least, this kind of prayer denies acceptance (acceptance is a more powerful agent for change than manipulation and coersion). At the worst, it really works! We pray something into reality that may not be in the best interest of the person we are praying for. How about "Thy Will be done" (the Radical Prayer) ? Just spouting off a bit here! Carry on...

My wife and I saw Da Vinci (both read the book, too). Don't listen to all the critics, it was a good movie. I thought it was an excellent adaptation of the book that is nearly equally thought-provoking and entertaining. I do understand why the French laughed at the end at Cannes, but I liked it anyway.

As we have our final prayers today, please be mindful of our the past week in prayer. What has it meant to you? What effect has it had on your life? Any struggles? Do you want to continue? It's difficult to quantify the effects of prayer. It's also difficult to know what effect it actually has. My experience tells me that it unlocks doors and unclogs pipes. We are often taught that we should be vessels holding love/light/God/etc, but my belief and experience tells me that we are at our most effective when we are like pipes. Blessings should be flowing through us. If all we do is the receiving, then we will fill up and the blessings can no longer flow (like a stopped pipe). This week: (DISCLAIMER: Results may vary ) -I experienced a deeper rhythm of peace -As I've loved you, I've also experienced more love -I've experienced unexpected forgiveness with a friend -I've taken more daring opportunities to love (one of which ended up being a powerful public witness for love in my church community) -My heart center has stayed open longer and wider than usual (emotional detachment has been a problem for me in the past) -Lost 2 pounds (hey, not much, but I'm not overweight and it's more than I've lost in all year of trying...and I didn't do anything different than pray) -I've experienced more abundance in general (this includes material abundance, I've freely received the following: a yoga mat, exercise equipment, clothing, a $320 backyard swimming pool, and two financial windfalls...no kidding <<UH OH! That's not very Christian! You shouldn't be getting stuff! Fatherman must be playing the back nine with Joel Osteen, T.D. Jakes, and Wayne Dyer! >>) Folks, I know my experiences this week may challenges your notions of prayer (or simply establish me as a first-class kook!), but I can't control blessings. The only thing I can control is whether I'm open to them or not, and whether I choose to allow them to flow through or not. Prayer is a tool that opens the door and unclogs the pipes, and (with practice) a way of life that facilitates God's infinite blessings in the world. Praise be to God for it.

Is he a fan of "The Celestine Prophecy" ? It's amazing the quibbles that are to be had over semantics. I would guess that quite a few of us here experience God as an energy that welcomes our participation. Underdiscovered by Science? Perhaps not.

Namaste! No permission required. I didn't write it. There is a branch of a yoga lineage here in Oklahoma Babaji-->Lahiri Mahasaya-->Paramahamsa Yogananda-->Roy Eugene Davis-->Audley Allison We have a wonderful tradition of chant that I've been fortunate enough to receive (mostly in English, some in Sanskrit). This one is good for self realization and samadhi.