fatherman

Deleted

Would you say a little more about how spirituallity is dangerous?

Howdy howdy!

My beliefs have varied over the course of the last 20 years. I'm ok with the orthodox belief that Jesus is an incarnation of God, but I think there are other ways of thinking about it. I like the idea that a spark of divinity is embedded in each of us, and that it can be nurtured into a flame, and that Jesus was absolutely ablaze to the point of being in full communion with God. We nurture that spark in a lot of different was; perhaps depending on the person. Meditation, compassion, service, kindness, grace, forgiveness, prayer, and self sacrifice are some of those ways. It's interesting to think of the roots of the word sacrifice ("holy" "action" to a deity). When we sacrifice ourselves for each other, we make of ourselves a holy gift to God. And so the divinity within us grows. As Christians, we should all strive to become ablaze as Christ was.

none of it is important if it doesn't make me more living. I just had to get it out of my system. I'm working some stuff out. I'm just not sure what!

This was a church had the 8 points literally posted on the wall. Kind of cool, actually. I miss it a lot, the people. i just don't like the assumptions that either sides makes about each other, and I'm not crazy about there being sides.

I don't really believe in fairies, but i'm keeping eyes out for bigfoot

Welcome! Post often! This forum could stand to be a little more lively!

I also believe in bigfoot

Skyseeker, you are bringing us a very keen perspective. I like what you're saying. I would offer my perspective concerning the notion as Jesus as the lamb of God. Jesus took on the mantle of Lamb of God when he accepted John's baptism. If Jesus were God's sacrifice, then that would imply that Jesus died for God's sins. It's the sinner who makes the sacrifice. We are the sinners, but rather than offering a lamb, Jesus substitutes himself as God's lamb for us. Whether you believe all this is a different story! But that's how I read it. Now as far as inerrancy and stuff, I lean toward what the moderator above wrote: "As I see it, the word as text is just the pointer to the Living Word" It is the relationship with the Holy Spirit (the helper, the advocate) that helps us here. Jesus knew how to cut through the horse puckey and find the true spirit of the law...something that's written upon our hearts. He also claimed to fulfill the law. So if Jesus is fulfilling the law he must be sinless because in a sense he becomes the law. Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

I think Christ defined discipleship when he said I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. When you look to Christ to help you find your way, to find truth, and as a guide for how to live your life, then I think you are a Christian. We can do those things without believing in Christ's divinity, but by believing in Christ's wisdom and way of life. And if you do that, you might be surprised by what you learn about divinity.

Hey guys, fatherman here. I don't expect anybody to read this. It's more for my benefit. Plus this place, sadly, is pretty dead. I've been a member of this community since 2004, although I haven't posted much in the last few years because I'm a bit of a square peg. I always have been. I don't fit into the progressive churches because I'm too spiritual, too new agey, too emotional, and too conservative. I don't fit into conservative churches because I'm too liberal, too new agey, and an unapologetic heretic. I identify as a Christian, but that's meant a whole lot of different things to me just since I've been with this community. If you read my posts from 2004 till the present you would see a wide range of perspective. I'm a work in progress. I may even have contradictory beliefs. I haven't sat down and articulated my beliefs for a long time, so here it is in a nutshell. I believe in one God with many forms that God is the creator of the Universe that God uses evolution to create that God lives both within and without creation that God loves all people of all religions equally and makes a place for everyone in whatever happens after we die that God created humans for the purpose of experiencing love relative to himself, and this is possible only because humans were given free will that there is evil in the world because of free will that God desires a personal relationship with us that the day of our death is preordained. that we can choose the story by which we live our lives. Better that we choose a story that works for us. that Jesus is an incarnation of God sent to show us what God is really like in terms that we can understand. that there may be other incarnations of God (and that Mr. Rogers may have been one) that Jesus, being an incarnation of God, performed miracles that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophesies about the Messiah that Jesus came for the sinners, not for the righteous that Grace is offered to everyone and that it is infinite and we can even accept it after death. that when we die to self, we enter into the Kingdom of God that the Kingdom of God is in the present that Jesus' death was more than a martyrdom. Perhaps it even has power over sin and death that Jesus rose from the dead that a life force animates the world and that by becoming fully aware of this force we can feel connected to all of creation and that God can work "miracles" through us including: manifestion of desires, psychic communication, healing, communion with God and the saints and the angels, and that we might even be able to experience other dimensions meditation is a way of tuning into the life force and entering into the Christ Consciousness that some things happen for a reason, especially human encounters. in angels in what canajan 'eh (formally a member of this forum) called Quantum Communication (most of you guys won't remember her, but she claimed to channel Jesus, and we all thought she was crazy). And through Quantum Communication we can communicate with heavenly beings that God can speak directly to humans in sin in forgiveness of sins that we're created with sin in our genes so that we can grow and know what grace is. that Mary may have had a virgin birth, but it really doesn't make a difference to me. that creatures such as fairies may exist and that most people can't see them because we live at a lower frequency of energy. But we can elevate our frequency. The lower the frequency, the more poorly we behave and feel. the higher the frequency the more loving and happy we become that the writers of the Bible in some cases were inspired, but fallible. that the writers of the Bible condemned homosexuality and that their reasons were just. But that God never did condemn it and certainly does not today. that Christ is somewhere in this universe and that he loves me personally. in ghosts and that they are human spirits that are so attached to their human lives that they never go into the light. that God can intervene directly in our lives that there is no such thing as supernatural, but there are things that happen that cannot yet be explained by science. all miraculous occurrences are natural that coffee is a gift from God call me what you will

I'm prepared to take some heat on this one! PC churches strive to be inclusive; however, there is a blind spot. Progressives are not welcoming to conservatives or even moderates sometimes. The first question to consider is WHY should we be? 1.) Many progressives have spouses who are more conservative who come to church with them 2.) Many blacks, Hispanics, and Asians are conservative, and we want them to feel welcome So what we end up with is a church insulated and set apart from the rest of the Christian church and are mainly white. The second question is HOW can we be more welcoming? 1.) We must drop the hostility toward conservatives. Even though there are conservatives bashing progressives, we must return no evil for evil. 2.) We should focus on the things that we are more likely to agree on: which is Jesus' teachings and example and worshiping together. 3.) I think it's better to have a moderate preacher who is fluent in both left and right theology. Who's willing to challenge and minister to both sides. I was a member of a progressive United Methodist church for 15 years until I took a music director job at a moderate church. It's true that atheists, questioning, and gay folks were more welcome, but ethnic minorities where almost entirely absent. At my current church (not the church I would have otherwise chosen) there are progressives, moderates, and conservatives. The pastor is moderate. There are a proportionate number of minorities. For the most part, we all get along. The pastor is not afraid of ruffling either progressives' or conservatives' feathers. I believe this church is healthier than the progressive church I attended. Perhaps It's not as inclusive in some regards, but it is in others. Following the pastor's example, we work out our faith together with mutual respect. Don't you know that the earliest church had conflicting views and squabbled? What good is it to attend a church where everyone agrees? How will you grow without diversity? We have to grow tougher more tolerant skins. The following scriptures speak to these issues (at least in my opinion) Romans 12 3-5 "14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c] Do not be conceited." "For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." Romans 12 7-8 "7 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone."

It's also important that he was talking to his disciples and not the masses. I really don't know what he meant, but it seems like he would have been trying to persuade the masses of this. Now he did say what it truly means to be righteous. He did say what it meant to live in a state of beatitude. This was Jesus' stump speech, not believe in me or burn.

On the night before his crucifixion, Jesus tells the disciples that he's going away. They are confused. He tells them that they will follow later. He says that he's going to prepare a place for them. They ask him how they know the way. and that's when he says it. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." So the first question to answer is where is Jesus going? Well the first place he is going is to the cross and to death. Then he will be resurrected. Then he will ascend to Heaven and sit on the right had of God the Father. So now we get to your question. What did Jesus mean? We can only speculate at this point. The orthodox interpretation is that you have to become a disciple of Jesus to go to heaven. But what does that mean? Well it means that you look to Jesus for the way, the truth, and the life. The problem I have with this, is that I'm a Universalist. I believe that heaven is open to all...whatever heaven may be. So, I take a heretical view. Jesus presents himself as more than a man. He is a way of living life more abundantly. He is showing us the "way" to live, the "truth" about the nature of God, and the "life" that is more abundant. So in living this way, believing Love and Forgiveness and Kindness and Peace (which is the nature of God) we will live life more abundantly. The hard part about this scripture is the that "The Way" is the way of the cross. We have to deny ourselves. We have to be willing to lose everything in order to enter into the Kingdom of God which is here and now (at hand). I accept that I am at odds with tradition. I don't know what Jesus "meant", but I know a lot about how he wanted us to live and how he wanted us to see God.

First, on a side note, I believe that certainty is what divides the world up. If you are certain that the Bible does not describe actual events then you are committing the same sin that a Fundamentalist commits when he is certain EVERYTHING in the Bible is actual events. I have never regretted being open minded when it comes to God, Jesus, and the Bible. Now, as has been pointed out many times on this forum, Truth and Fact are different things. And I think that everything revealed to the men who wrote the Bible doesn't have to be fact for them to ring true. I believe that the God of the Bible is a God that continues to reveal himself to us day by day whether we notice it or not. The book of Revelation is not the end of God's story. I do not believe that Truth evolves. Rather, our understanding and relationship to Truth evolves. So do God's Laws evolve? That's a different question. God said to the Jews, don't eat all if this sh!t that could be bad for you. But then God revealed in a dream to Peter that Christians (mainly the Gentiles) don't have to worry about that stuff anymore. In a small way, God's stance on something change, or was amended to include non Jews. Homosexuality is a good one to look at. I'm tired of trying to say that the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality. I know all of the translations and arguments, but at the end of the day I am not swayed by it. I believe that in those times, it was a sin. When you're trying to build a nation, you can't waste seed on infertile soil. If you're gay, you gotta suck it up and take a wife for the sake of God's Chosen people. In a culture where there was no concept of a loving gay relationship, where there was only adultery, prostitution, and pedophilia, then yes, it's sinful. But we're no longer trying to build a nation. And we have a loving context for homosexuality. So I don't believe it is a sin anymore. So does that mean that Truth evolved? Or that new truths were revealed? Circumstances evolved. And I choose to believe that God does not condemn homosexuality in our modern circumstance. Love is the constant Truth that makes it sacred now. As far as what Jesus may or may not have said that wasn't recorded the Bible, I say err on the side of love, grace, kindness, forgiveness, and inclusion.

"We don’t climb mountains to take a selfie, but to get wind of the beauty around, above and inside us." ~ Soma I absolutely love this phrase. So much going on there. This thread title is very provocative. If you mean the term "God" versus some other name for God, then that's one thing. If you mean that we talk too much about God (by any name), that is another. We name God according to our needs. If we are sinners, we call God "Grace". If we have needs like children, we call God "Father" or "Mother". If we need mystery in our life, when call God "Unknown". We name God according to our beliefs, as well. But this is where we limit what God can be in our lives. If I believe God is masculine, then how can I receive a mother's touch from God? Or if I believe that God is entirely separate from us, then how can I find him in the faces of my neighbors? However, if you mean that we are too God-centric. I would disagree. We're in a damn religion that is all about a people's relationship with a god! Of course we're going to talk about our god! But, I believe I know what you are saying. We are made of "God" stuff.

In thinking about Salvation in terms of eternal life, I think about Jesus' definition of the Kingdom of God. First off, it is "at hand". It's not strictly an afterlife thing. It's a here and now thing. Entering the Kingdom of God is about being in a state of mind. It's a way of seeing the world and living in it. It's when we help order the world according to God's Grace and Love and Kindness. So if Salvation is what you need to get into the Kingdom of God, then it means that we allow grace to release us from our emotional attachment to our sin. We turn away (repent) from our hurtful behavior. And when we do this, we enter the Kingdom...we are saved. The Christian rhythm of Salvation is Sin --> Confess -- > Repent --> Accept Grace then repeat until we die. And perhaps along the way, we slow down the cycle and live in the Kingdom state of mind more and more often. Or, another way that Jesus put it is that he came in order that we may have life and have it abundantly.

Thank you, Steve.

"I am not sure how any of this could be taken literally. God is creating a good world. Why is it evil? Who has the power to thwart God's intent? Did God make an evil world? Only an arrogant human would think he had the power to upset God's good world." Glintofpewter, I think the answer to the Theodicy (which is a huge and endless discussion outside of the scope of this thread), is that there is evil in the world because there is human free will. And there is free will in the world because otherwise Love, Grace, Kindness, Sacrifice, and host of many other good things cannot exist without the freedom to choose otherwise. So God's intent for us is that we choose on the side of good, but he has given us the choice to "thwart God's intent".

As to the question of why Jesus only died for people in the present and future. Hebrews 10:12-14English Standard Version (ESV)12 But when Christ[a] had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. For "all time", I think the intention here is to cover past, present, and future according to Paul. Not sure how that works, but there you go!

"No, Jesus did not die for our sins. To appease an angry god with blood sacrifice is very primitive" Larry, this part of the story is important in order to convince the Jews to understand what kind of Messiah Jesus was. They knew what a blood sacrifice was theologically. Just as the virgin birth is important to get the Greeks and Romans on board. Whether these stories are factual or not no one can tell. I see the atonement differently than the angry god scenario. I like the story that Jesus is the Emmanuel, God with us. So that means that it is God sacrificing himself, in human form, for our sins. I agree that blood sacrifices are primitive and I think it was part of the point. Jesus is saying "Hey, you don't need to sacrifice a lamb to receive forgiveness from God. In fact, here, I'll go ahead and be the ultimate blood sacrifice and you can drop this nonsense. I'll be the Lamb of God." At least, that's one way of looking at it. The question, however, remains, is there power over sin in Jesus' martyrdom? And the answer may be found in your heart. Do you feel a personal connection with Jesus? Do you feel forgiveness flowing from Jesus' veins? You may not. You may in the future. Or you may not. The story of a god willing to suffer a human death is compelling to me. The atonement is something that you have to live into, otherwise it may be meaningless. Or maybe it happens whether we believe it or not. As far as being primitive. Many things we do are primitive. But we do them to survive.

A fundamentalist Lutheran friend simplified something I'd been chewing on for years. It pertains first to grace. Paraphrased, there is Justice, which is that everybody should get what they deserve. And there is Grace. God gives this to us rather then what we deserve. This is one element of my salvation belief. Another element is that Salvation requires a posture that brings our lives into balance. Yes, we need to be saved from our baser tendencies, not to secure our eternity, but to live life more abundantly. But just as important, we need to open ourselves up to something greater than ourselves and learn to trust it and lean on it.

I was pure intellect in my 20s. Someone invited to a new age meditation group. I had an emotional awakening followed by a spiritual awakening. They are related. Emotional repression can be related to spiritual repression. It's interesting that when the spirit moved, all the symbols and ideas and rituals of my inherited faith came to life. It's like, how do you teach someone to act passionately toward a woman? A gesture here, a a word here, a touch here. No! None of that is going to make sense until you FEEL passionate.

To me it means I can believe in whatever helps me behave more like Christ. It's about giving myself the space to be open. Open to anything whether it be orthodoxy or new age or humanism or anything. It means that i don't have to believe a certain way to be a Christian.