fatherman

Kind of you. It seems that I am a heretic everywhere I go. :-)

I don't want to leave Jen hanging out to dry here. I resonate strongly with what she has written, but ultimately it is about my need to be among people who share a stronger consensus on the basic mainline Christian beliefs. PC is about challenging traditions, it is true, but there is a core that I do not wish to debate or defend. It stresses me out. I wish each of you peace, joy, and love in your endeavors here. I have much love for this forum and it's participants.

Guys, I'm taking my leave. It's not personal. I just find very little peace here for myself. Keep up the awesome dialog. In Christ, Fatherman (featherman?) :-)

Oops. Double post. Every morning when you wake up you pray Thy Will Be Done, just as Jesus did. Then you let it happen.

You don't have to know the will of God to submit to it.

You don't have to know the will of God to submit to it.

Oh, and Bill, I left something out from my story. The horrible images. A therapist taught me a trick that isn't any kind news, but it helped. Every time the image came to mind, I attached a tremendous amount of emotional energy to it which was making it worse. So I just let the images come and let them go with as little response as possible. I know this different in severity for me, but I still struggle, snd it helps. Just know that you are on my mind out of sincere concern even if I'm not helping.

Welcome! And I am official changing my handle from Fatherman to Featherman!

I do very much believe that there is room in the Christian family for atheists and agnostics. I am struck by the fact that we both referenced the parable of the sheep and goats within the same 24 hours. Perhaps you read my post first. I think this is a very much overlooked verse by a huge number of Christians. I wonder how these more Pharisaical Christians see themselves in the parable? But for me, it is a cornerstone in a sense. Jesus is pleading with us to drop this notion that our rigidity in regards to our religion whether it be the laws of righteousness and sin or our creeds and dogmas and all of the ugliest that that leads to. "Do you love me?" he asks Peter later. "Then feed my sheep." That's it. Not, if they aren't lazy bums, then feed my sheep. If their Christian, then feed my sheep. Nope. If none of us who identify as Christians here on this site were feeding the sheep, then we'd just be a bunch of baseless jackasses heeing and hawing....or what's the sound a goat makes?

This is a very old thread, and I'm not going to reread it. I may have even posted on it, so stop me if I'm repeating myself or anybody else! This discussion of Free Will at TCPC recently has been very thought provoking for me. I'm thinking a little more about it than usual. If it were a no brainer, we wouldn't be talking about it so much. I did a little mental digging and I was reminded of a concept that I had not thought about for a long time. I kind of fell away from Wayne Dyer a few years ago, but he had an intriguing idea which is not new. I think it relates to what Jesus and other wisdom juggernauts and mystics have taught. It is a mystic or these days New Age idea, but it's gaining some traction in science. Again, I am not a scientist, I just listen to NPR! The idea is that we live life on a frequency. Our state of mind has a frequency of sorts. Let's say that Jesus is a 10 and Hitler was a 1. Jesus was living in a state of pure Love, and Hitler was living in a state of pure hate (and all the things that make that up). We know that what we do affects what we feel, and that what we feel affects what we do. We also know that both of those things affect our brain. The more kind acts I commit, the more my brain becomes wired for kindness. The more I feel unworthy, the more my brain supports that belief. Now, enter Free Will. There is an increasing body of evidence to support the idea that there is no true Free Will. All I have is anecdotal for what I'm about to say. Let's take alcoholism. They say an alcoholic is born an alcoholic. He is wired for it out of the womb. Perhaps not in all cases, but let's say an alcoholic could not have chosen not to be an alcoholic no more than he could have chosen the color of his eyes. However, some get sober and so do not. To answer that would take more knowledge than I have. What I'm going to suggest is that some drunks respond to their tragedies by eventually dying from the disease, and some respond by going to AA. There are many different reasons, but ultimately it's the realization that they are 100% powerless and they care enough to do something. They care about their families, for example. They want to be good fathers, good wives, good employees, good people. By this desire, they have raised their frequency just high enough to make a start. The program is essentially designed to raise a person's frequency to a higher level, a level of forgiveness and service and selflessness. They overrode genes, resentments, hurts, and narcissism and surrendered to a God of their understanding...and became sober Still an alcoholic, but a sober one. Before AA, doctors believed that a drunk was incurable and hopeless. No amount of free will should be able to make a drunk sober. So, what I'm proposing is that there is really only one freedom of will. Choosing between your will and the will of a higher power. Choose your will, and you are doomed to your circumstances. Choose God's will and there is hope. Tear it apart!

Bill, part of your story reminds me of something that happened to me recently.I've only shared this with few people because it is very personal and few people would even believe it. I share not to pressure you into believing something, but simply as a witness. You'll find your own way. This is a good forum for that. It's helped me many times over the last decade. Earlier this year, my son of 15 attempted suicide. We never saw it coming. My son has been an atheist since he was 5. In his note, he expressed that in the vastness of the Universe, his speck of life had no consequence or meaning. The stresses of his life had become unbearable and he saw no reason to suffer any longer. His means of killing himself was particular disturbing and graphic. I could not get the image out of my head. Although I did not see it, I could invision every last detail of it, which turned out to be eerily accurate. Late that night I couldn't sleep so I prayed. I could not feel the presence of God at all. I'd never felt so alone and in so much pain. And although my son survived, my brain could only see his death. The next day, and for the first time in my life, I believed that God was a lie, or at least that he had abandoned me. I met with my pastor, but it didn't help. My faith was dead, and I was furious. The next night I could not sleep, so I tried one last time to pray. Here's how it went. Me: God,where are you? God: I am here with you. Me: But why weren't you with me last night when i needed you? Me: I have me reasons. David, listen to me. Life is pain. But I am God. Me: Were you with Chris when he tried to end his life? Did you intervene? God: No, that was all Chris. He needed to see that he did not truly want to die. Believe what you will about this experience, but I can tell you that this "God" did not fit my theology or beliefs. This started a new kind of relationship for me. I'm not sure what to think of it yet, but God stopped being an idea to discuss and became something very real to me. I believe that we do not get to choose how or when God reveals himself to us. There is no right or wrong way. For example, I believe God is something greater than just male or female, but this was a father, no question. It would do little good for me to intercede in prayer for you because I have no idea of what you truly need. But I hope that you stick around and let us help you at least work out your theological struggles. Peace.

Bill, I can't imagine what you are going through. I'm so sorry. You are in a faith crisis that causes many people to lose faith entirely. It's the question of if there is a God and God loves us, then why do bad thinks happen to us. You've already heard a standard response: it's all a part of God's plan. I do believe that God makes plans of some sort, but I do not believe God is thinking that his child, Bill, needs to learn something that only can be facilitated by a loss like this. For learning, for saving, for changing in any way. I do believe from much personal experience that God seeks us in our brokenness. It was in Jesus's brokenness that great love was given to the world. Even if you can't believe in Jesus as divine and a savior, you can find meaning in his forgiving his tormenters with his final breaths. When I look back on my life, I often think well if such and such bad never happened then such and such good would have never happened. It's easy to conclude that it happened the way God wanted it to happen. But I think that another response could be if God had not been with me every step of the way, then these good things would never have happened. And that response should be immediately follow with Thank You God.(not for my loss, but because of your faithfulness) There is likely little if anything I could say to you that will give you comfort, but perhaps you might consider giving God a chance to see you through. Or if you can't do that perhaps you could consider delaying judgment on the Christian faith for a little while longer. I don't think you will regret it. God is looking for you in your broken places right now. Blessings, friend

The ability to choose is what the writers of the Bible and Jesus are concerned with. Whether that is free will or not is a matter of semantics to me. Here's what one dictionary says about it Free Will - the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. Sounds like what those Bible guys were talking about to me. But it leaves many questions for me. I'm not the scientist you are, but I listen to NPR. And genetics shows up regularly. I have a lot of traits, perhaps all of them, that were genetically predetermined. But the twist is that I have an identical twin brother. Brought up by the same parents, same house, same college, same degree, both married to Jennifers. However, we are very different. Different tastes, different health problems, different theology, different interests. So how did that happen? At some point we chose to diverge. I stopped playing baseball to focus on music. He went varsity. We chose different friends. On and on. So did the freedom of the will to choose different lives override our identical genes? Maybe. I'm powerless over drink. I was born that way, and yet I have chosen sobriety. Same with bipolar. I take the meds. Now, I'm going to go ahead and assume that what I am describing is not what you mean by free will, but that's what I mean. Where I differ with many Christians is that I don't believe we choose salvation. If God wants to save us, he will. I don't believe in any magic words that buy you a ticket to eternal paradise, otherwise eternal damnation. It is not our will that saves us no more than it is a child's will to be saved from oncoming traffic. That's why we pray Thy Will be Done. We are admitting that when we live our lives by our own will, we suffer time and time again. It doesn't matter to me if this is factual at all. That's not what faith is. All that really matters to me is that it is working for me. Whatever works for the next guy is what they should stick to.

This is a good topic, made even more interesting with science. Need some time to think about this

Thanks, Jen. I may know these things, but it is so helpful to read your perspective on them. I write a blog called mywifesaysimcomplicated, because it's true. I've simply accepted it and owned it. That is the way God made me. We all have our wonderful complexities! I'm blessed to have a two wonderful mentors: my sponsor and the pastor at the church I'm currently working. It's made a huge difference in my life. You are so right when you underscored the importance of that. What's perplexing is that I know how to reach a quantum state, but I rarely do it. It's like the blind thirsty man who cannot see the water in front of him, and when he is given the water he drinks it down and no longer thirsts. And then his eyes are opened! And yet when he becomes thirsty again, he does not drink from the very cup he was given when he was blind. It seems like a simple conundrum to solve, and yet I have not solved it. Perhaps I'm just too lazy and busy to drink it. That just doesn't make any sense, though!

Beautifully said, soma. Mystical experience and way of life is difficult to relate to others. I do not try. It is like dreams, it may only have meaning for the person experiencing them. The mind works like a single processor computer as you've described: one instruction at a time in rapid succession. A computer processor works with a queue. The instructions in the queue is prioritized by importance and chronology, just as we do. We deal with the immediate needs first. We are made to want to understand. That is something that makes us human, but there are plenty of things I know or experience which I do not understand; this phone that I am typing this post on, for example! Some do understand it, but I do need to understand how it is made to make use of it. God is such. The difference is that no one designed God. God designed us! Which means that he understands us intimately. The best we can do is have AN understanding of God. We will not likely have THE understanding of God.

I don't think so. I don't need to understand to experience God. I'm just trying to acknowledge that it is certainly natural to do so. While also saying that it can only take you so far.

I guess it's contextual for me. But what I'm lacking is the steadfastness of keeping that conscious contact with God. God Consciousness. There are different ways of doing that. I've experienced a metaphysical contact where I can actually feel God's presence in my consciousness. Meditation usually gets me there. Then there's that consciousness of God, guide me in my handling of this situation. Give me the words to say. Give me the kindness and acceptance to love this person. Perhaps these are the same things, but they feel different. Then there's understanding. There's the reading and the writing and discussion and the introspection. This shapes my understanding of God. Understanding can pave a way or block a way to God Consciousness. So, I acknowledge the importance of the intellect in faith. And I bear no pride over trying to be more rounded spiritually. It's a choice that I've made that works for me. What concerns me is the rejection by many progessives of the emotional, spiritual, Biblical, metaphysical approaches to God. I've been criticized or even sneered at for this, and I have to confess that I'm holding on to some resentment. I feel out of place in my progressive faith community. I know that not all of these approaches work for everyone. But I'm no less a progressive for that path.

Note: I had intended to leave out my last line of my last post, but I can no longer edit it. The reason I changed my mind is that there are Christian atheists, and there are atheists who have sort of stake in the direction of Christianity. They are a part of our family.

I think that you are correct. My struggle may be that I get focused on one to the exclusion of the others. For many years I relied exclusively on intellect. Followed by many years of mystical spirituality. Right now, I'm focusing on kindness and faithfulness and surrender. Learning to integrate, to become a whole person perhaps is a form of enlightenment. Not something to be achieved. Perhaps more like getting out of the way of yourself. I do not know if i've ever actually experienced this. Perhaps I never will. Maybe im just over thinking it. :-) Thanks, soma. These are ideas to ponder.

Wow. This is a great topic. I'm going to boil this down a little. If a secular society is doing a better job with Jesus's economic principles then why introduce Christianity to that society? Moreover, why not invent a new religion based on the success of that country? This speaks to my belief that they will know we are Christians by our fruits. As an American, I believe that church and state should not be mixed. It sounds like you are saying that if they did mix in Denmark, which would mean a state religion, then it would be worse off. In America, we definitely would be worse off given that the Christian power brokers would seek to take away human rights from it's citizens and instantiate economic policies that are in fact antithetical to Christian economics. But let's say that the closest economic policy to Jesus' is something akin to Denmark's system. That would mean that the Christian way would be meeting the goals of distributive justice! So why then should people become Christians in Denmark? Well there is far more to the faith than economics. Having a faith community based on caring and social justice, having a personal God to help you with your burdens, salvation however you understand that, and all the known benefits of a spiritual life just to name a few. So the need to start a new religion implies that Christianity is broken. I think there's some truth to that, but that has been the case since the 3rd century. This is what the progressive Christian movement seeks to address. We want to get back to the true teachings of Jesus as we know him. Rather than rejectin and becoming atheists. It is a movement that is gaining traction!

To J and J. I could spend a few weeks with you guys on this remarkable discourse,but it's late. I just wanted to acknowledge you, say thanks. I think a lot about the importance of free will in humanity. I like to imagine that our presence on earth is God's desire to have love in relationship with a species that can know him. Love cannot exist in us without free will, without the ability to choose other than love. It's part of the answer to the Theodacy question for me. Blessings J and J

You won't learn how to he nice from a literal or symbolic Jesus. Jesus was a nuisance to many. People be like Jesus! Did you seriously invite him? Last time he came he invited a bunch of lepers and hookers to eat all the caviar! I did appreciate the wine thing, though. The difference between learning to sing and learning squash is that with squash you can see and actively engage athletic muscles. The vocal chords can't be directly seen or manipulated. That's the correlation between faith and voice. It's something whose product is felt and seen in action.

Thanks for the encouragement, but I'm more trying to make a point than express a concern for myself. I'm comfortable with where I am. I'm just curious about the consensus of this forum on the subject. I'm upset with the views expressed by some specific progressive Christians in my former faith community.I want to know if they are in the minority.