fatherman

Good words for us, Jeannot. That's the meat! No Christian can debate this one! (I dare you to!)

Our little experiment in prayer has got me thinking about prayer within the context of progressive Christianity. If you pray, how and why? I you don't, then why not? Is prayer meaningless outside of supernatural theism? A dear friend of mine is a Christian humanist (to give him a label). He doesn't pray because he admittedly cannot get past his childhood image of prayer being between himself and a big man in the sky. Does prayer require a belief in God? A belief in a certain kind of God? A certain kind of belief in God?

Here's what it sounds like (not a high quality recording...made it right here at my desk) Listen

I guess no matter what I call myself, I have a great desire to be in tune with the Source for as much of may daily minutes as I can. When God's Truth is revealed, I pay attention and respond in gratitude, but mainly I just want to walk in her company and feel her tender embrace...that is peace for me. Here's a song that I often sing. O Great Wave, Wipe away, Wipe away my false face. Awaken from my sleep a radiant light. Touch me. Touch me. I'm once again beyond the beyond. I Am That I Am.

I found this in an essay by Stephen A. Hoeller called What is Gnostic? He offers these twelve points composed by Professor Clark Emery as an appromixation of what characterizes Gnosticism ( some or all of these). I put numbers on them for the purpose of discussion #1 - No problem, to the extent that the ultimate Truth of the plurality is its Unity. #2 - I assume this is the Demiurge. Correct? I believe that humanity's symbols for God are ever-expanding and the Demiurge represents the Ancient Hebrew's first recorded symbol for God (pretty sophisticated actually), but limited. I don't yet see the value of this symbol except in recognizing that it is not the whole story of God. #3 - Sophia? Yes, a very important symbol for me. I often pray and seek solace in Mother Divine. She brings balance to the masculine. #4 - I would call this Maya (in the Hindu tradition), the great illusion. #5 - I affirm the truth of this statement, but struggle with the language. I would say Sandbox rather than Prison. #6 - Totally! This is the challenge, isn't it? #7 - And this it the tool of salvation #8 - Knowlege in the Gnostic understanding, right? Not in the western understanding. We're talking about the living Truth. #9 - When you stir up the metaphysical components of the person from it's daze, you're going to get some trouble (not unlike when you undergo psychotherapy). All attachments, all wounds, all fears will rise to consciousness and the *%@#storm begins. Many will give up at this point. The important task here is to summon gratitude for each event and release it. #10 - Yes #11 - Cosmic, yes, but certainly not detached from the physical and emotional states (I suspect) #12 - We're talking about Jesus' mission to usher in the Kingdom of God one person at a time (maybe? yes?). In practice, this is a personal task, a shift in consciousness that (subsequently) when it reaches a critical mass in humanity will cause a massive paradigm shift. Just some thoughts. I don't know, Gnosteric, how you view these 12 points. I guess some of the symbols and myths in classic Gnosticism are still really unfamiliar to me and seem a little bizarre, but then again, traditional Christian symbols would seem bizarre at first glance as well.

Yes, it our job to ascend and transcend. Hitler created a Universe out of his own ego. Any one of us has the potential.

God yes! My first exploration of Gnosticism (after reading Da Vinci code) was stopped abruptly because I didn't like the idea that was coming across of the physical world being bad stuff, but on second look I see that I was missing the point. No more time to comment, but I'll be back to this topic. I suspect I am more in line with Gnosticism that I earlier suspected. Especially in practice. Later

I'm not sure, however, that it fits with the spirit of Point 2. The traditional Christianity (as defined since the Enlightenment), may not be compelling to you or me, but it still is compelling to millions and should be honored as a valid living faith.

Well put, Luthitarian!

Nice to see you around, DCJ! As usual you've raised some very important points to consider. I don't have much time right now, but I want address the following point (briefly): This is not a simple question, is it? The easy liberal answer might be "A God who offers unconditional love and forgiveness"; but as a parent, I know that it's not that simple. Because I want my children to learn, I make sure that they encounter a logical consequence (all the better if it causes discomfort). I believe that God has a deep desire for us to grow and learn in love. So to say that if God loves Hitler unconditionally, he wouldn't punish...well, that's not an easy argument to make either. Hitler is a great figure for these kinds of discussions because everyone can agree that he doesn't deserve forgiveness or grace or paradise. Many would agree that if there is a hell, that none is hot enough for a man who did what he did. It's easy to support a punishing God with scripture, and it's also easy to support a forgiving God with scripture. So instead, I'll give you my own personal new age, flaky answer. God created a Universe that is self-balancing. It knows how to keep every aspect of itself in balance. Hindus call this Karma. Christians and Jews speak of the cause and effect metaphor of reaping and sowing as well as the Judgement. How will the Universe deal with Hitler? Most likely as severely as he dealt with with humanity. His afterlife will be of his making and his imagining. When will he pass on to God's loving embrace? As soon as he reaches out to receive God's grace. What then? Who knows? What can be more transforming than Grace? (If reincarnation is true, this dude is in for a lot of difficult living) So in this scenario, if you care to consider it, did God punish Hitler? Did he get what he deserved? Fortunately, God doesn't always give us what we deserve. A traditionalist might argue, in fact, that Christ died on the cross to save us from getting what we all (as sinners) deserve. As for me, I believe that no matter what we do, "neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord". Also, DCJ, would you consider joining our prayer group? (see the thread entitled "Experiment in Prayer") My suggestion for how to prayer is just a suggestion, we'll take any kind of prayer you have (as long as it's out of love). In Christ, Fatherman

I first learned about this metaphor/myth in an excellent novel and movie "Bee Season". I suspect that it is a good metaphor to work with, although it had an odd affect on one of the characters in the novel.

Now that's just not right! Not my COOKIES! Oh Father(man), can I do 1000 hail Sophia's instead? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> <<cough cough>> <<coughing fit laughter>>

I haven't finished it, but many folks on this site have. I'm loving it so far. I have no problem recommending based on what I've read. I think it's go to be right up your alley, Dave!

There is fantastic article in Newsweek about Mary Magdalene. It gives a lot of credibility to the Gnostics, the Gospel of Mary, and the Gospel of Phillip. It gives a sort of timeline narrative of how the Church went with Peter and discredited Mary. These kinds of articles in mainstream mags do a lot for the cause of setting the record straight about the Bible and Christianity. Loved it! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12893635/site/newsweek/ Gnosteric, I'd love to hear your take on the article. Fatherman

Dave, I like Marcus Borg's suggestion in The Heart of Christianity that the Bible is sacrament. In other words, it becomes a medium for experiencing God right here and now. So even though the Bible has a cultural/historical frame (just like any book), it can be a platform for a brand new experience. <<Geez Fatherman, let's see how many different ways you can say the same thing >> For your consideration, Fatherman (also David)

NO SOUP FOR YOU!!! (tee hee hee hee ) I was hoping you would join us Gnosteric (just do a few a extra prayers to catch up )

In case it wasn't clear, friends, Jeannot is participating with us here. So make sure Jeannot is getting some special love and light from you (at least until next Thursday)!

This is as a truly eloquent expression of the Gyre.

bobve2, I'm so glad that you're here . The concern you expressed in your profile about the intimidating level of academia on this forum should be considered a red flag by this group that we are sometimes getting carried away. Please consider joining in. I predict that your contributions will become a vital part of our discussions here if you do. fatherman

Then you're in good company, luthitarian. Both Aletheia and I have identified as panentheist. That's one of the reasons I suggested the love and light method of prayer. As fleshy, human parts of the All, we share creative power with it. Focusing God's energy (as it flows through us) in loving thought of one another is therefore not fruitless. It is only a suggestion, though. We each have our own approach or non-approach to prayer. Would you consider offering your awesome Psalm 139-inspired awareness prayer considering this group when you say "we"? Just a thought

It was crumby of me to only allow you the choice of arrogance and obsession. Truthfully, you are blessed to Gnow the touch of the Divine and helpless in your desire to want more of it.

This is an idea that means a lot to me, but I find it is often rejected by both my traditional Christian friends and some of my progressive Christian friends. My traditional friends say "Only Christ can give salvation". My progressive friends say "I don't need salvation". I suppose it depends on what they mean by Christ and what they mean by Salvation. Jesus was a tricky fellow. He came to show a different meaning of the Messiah (the annointed, the one prophecied to deliver the Jews) or the Christ (the anointed,or to annoint). As the Christ, he was expected to restore the house of David to power and perhaps liberate the Jews from the Romans. Instead he came to restore God to power and liberate the people from sin. << I know this is basic stuff here, but bear with me...I'm building to something >>. So, Jesus is working on a whole different level than folks are expecting. Right? So, let's frame the Gospels with Jesus' metaphorical perspective. When Jesus says "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" John 14:6, I will assume he is using his life as a metaphor. To me, Christ is the Christian model for self-realization. And "comes to the Father" is God-Realization. God-Realization cannot be experienced except by first experiencing Self-Realization (I'm writing on the shoulders of greater men and women then I here). So, in a sense, I agree with both my Trad and Prog friends...don't I? After all, all we have are symbols for God and Salvation. Just because I happen to work out those symbols a little differently doesn't mean we're not all in the same boat. "In Christ alone is Love full grown and life and hope begun" (How Can We Name a Love - Brian Wren).

Yes, I believe this is why the results of the recent prayer experiments with cancer (?) patient showed no difference between prayer and no prayer. Prayer, in my experience, requires effort on the part of the supplicant. As supplicants we are partners with God. Because I believe in the power of prayer and because I don't have the full wisdom of God, I choose not to pray for specifics. The best I can offer is my love and peace. Remarkable things can happen when we focus our loving energy on someone or something. So, Jeannott, are you joining our experiment? or