fatherman

Hmm... I suppose if I accept the notion that God went from being formless into manifesting himself as a relative universe on his own free will, then I would have to accept the possibility of a dynamic God.

Perhaps not. Intuition tells me that if a pope passionately guided the church back to a strict, extremely traditional (orthodox, I suppose) Catholicism that it might just invigorate the struggling church. Moderation hasn't helped the Presbyterians, Methodists, and Episcopalians, has it? Over all, conservative churches are the ones with energy and growth. In an increasingly complex world, people are looking for a rock to stand on, even if they are getting beat over the head with it from time to time.

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace. Where there is hatred, let me sow love; where there is injury, pardon; where there is doubt, faith; where there is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light; where there is sadness, joy! Grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console; to be understood as to understand; to be loved as to love. For it is in giving that we receive; it is in pardoning that we are pardoned; and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. St. Francis of Assisi

What a beautiful thread. Cynthia, You wrote Which makes you irregular? Lack of meditation or flour and sugar? Sorry...couldn't resist!

Lent is my most treasured season of the Church. My wife and I practice it every year. It is such a wonderful opportunity for spiritual, personal growth. The first thing on Jesus' agenda after his babtism was 40 days of spiritual purification in the wilderness. He didn't just go out and start preaching and healing. This is a crucial piece of the Christian journey. My practices vary from year to year, and I find that my experience deepens little bit every time.

Beach, I think you have an interesting idea. I was brought up in a decidedly "moderate" family (Presby, Democrat). For my Dad, especially, being a moderate is not just riding on the fence or being wishy-washy (as I used to think), it is an intentional lifestyle. Being moderate to him means seeking balance. He believes in the principle of conserving while keeping an open mind about change. I've been critical of him over the years because I believed he should be more decisive, but as Freud said, "Neurosis is the inability to tolerate ambiguity." Moderates have a remarkable ability to tolerate ambiguity. The wording of your points will not appeal to moderates. Many of the points contain veiled criticism of other Christian groups or are specific political stances. I've attended several moderate churches and I've noticed that their mission statements are never a list of political or critical statements. They are usually very traditional simple statements like: or

MERCY REACHES OUT, SAYING ... RETURN. Turn. Let go of the old ways that lead to such pain. Start over. Fast. Empty yourselves to be filled with something new. -- Wendy M. Wright THE RISING

I heard one guy say that money is just another form of energy (you know, that stuff that eminates from God). If we treat money the same way treat God's sustaining energy then everything will be cool. For one, energy wants to flow. If you let it stop in your own selfish little circuit, it will stop flowing to you. It has to flow from you just as freely as it flows to you. Abundance is infinite, scarcity is the finite one.

(not sure if this is a true story or not, but it's a good one) The professor of a well known local university challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?" A student answered bravely, "Yes, he did". The professor then asked, "If God created everything, then he created evil. Since evil exists (as noticed by our own actions), so God is evil. The student couldn't respond to that statement causing the professor to conclude that he had "proved" that "belief in God" was a fairy tale, and therefore worthless. Another student raised his hand and asked the professor, "May I pose a question? " "Of course" answered the professor. The young student stood up and asked : "Professor does Cold exist?" The professor answered, "What kind of question is that? ... Of course cold exists ... haven't you ever been cold?" The young student answered, "In fact sir, Cold does not exist. According to the laws of Physics, what we consider cold, in fact is the absence of heat. Anything is able to be studied as long as it transmits energy (heat). Absolute Zero is the total absence of heat, but cold does not exist. What we have done is create a term to describe how we feel if we don't have body heat or we are not hot." "And, does Dark exist?", he continued. The professor answered "Of course". This time the student responded, "Again you're wrong, Sir. Darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in fact simply the absence of light. Light can be studied, darkness cannot. Darkness cannot be broken down. A simple ray of light tears the darkness and illuminates the surface where the light beam finishes. Dark is a term that we humans have created to describe what happens when there's lack of light." Finally, the student asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?" The professor replied, "Of course it exists, as I mentioned at the beginning, we see violations, crimes and violence anywhere in the world, and those things are evil." The student responded, "Sir, Evil does not exist. Just as in the previous cases, Evil is a term which man has created to describe the result of the absence of God's presence in the hearts of man. After this, the professor bowed down his head, and didn't answer back. The young man's name was ALBERT EINSTEIN

Everything exists by the same law that allows what we call miracles to happen. God intends the Universe into being. God is still intending the Universe into being. When we connect to this same field of intention with our own intent, we bring our intentions into being. This is how a miracle works. The level of energy we do it with affects the level that it becomes manifest. Let's say Jesus lived at 1000 on the energy scale. Maybe we're trudging along at 100 hundred or so. We're got to accelerate and then connect to the source of all intention. It's not just a nice idea...I've witnessed it and participated in it. We all have on some level.

(fatherman chuckles to himself...wipes a bit of milk toast off his chin)

Darby, You've hit on a really good point. I think that many progressives do struggle with some of the depictions of Jesus while easily accepting others. We get squirmish with words like sin, repentence, and hell. I don't speak for anyone here but myself, but I find those words and this part of the Jesus in scripture to be very useful. I might view them differently than an evangelical or a fundamentalist, though. Sin Anything that I do that results in unnecessary suffering. I say 'unnecessary' because I want to distinguish between sending my kid to his room and humiliating him with hateful words. Will I be punished for my sin? Well, not exactly. The difference between punishment and consequence is in the intent. In either case I may suffer for my sin through the natural law of cause and effect, but if I view it as punishment, then if becomes about what God did to me. If I view it as consequence, it becomes about my sin and the need to repent. So I would say I may suffer for my sin, but I am not punished. Repentance To turn away. Repentance is very important in any religion. Religion is not just about belief, it is about behavior. When we behave in a way that just doesn't work for us, we need to turn away....try something that might actually work for us instead. Maybe I'm feeling anxious. I might try drinking. Eventually I'll find out that it is not going to work for me. I need to turn away. I'll try meditation instead. Hell I wish I knew. My current thinking is that it is an after-life place (or state of consciousness) where all my worldly attachments prevent me from going to paradise. I will not escape until I let go. I would like to note that these words were off limits at my former church (very liberal).

Soma, I dig it so much, that if my ass were bigger I'd tattoo it there for safe keeping ...but I don't think it represents the "Progressive Christian" perspective. The notion of consciousness outside of the rational brain is generally received with skepticism by progressives. Intellect is the higher consciousness for progressive Christians. Progressives are generally about the business of the journey of Christ-like life in a very physical/rational way. A progressive gets close to God by poring over the writings of Bishop Spong, camping, protesting war, and building low-cost housing in Nicaragua. tee hee hee hee (shh!!!!) I'm not sure what the label for the perspective you are describing is (New Age, Mystic, Christ Consciousness). And although it represents the perspective of many of us here, it is not representative of Progressive Christianity. Maybe you should just consider removing the word "Progressive" from your article. I don't know...what do you guys think? What other word would be better?

Preach it, Cynthia!

I watched the Huston Smith video that you mentioned. I've been a big fan ever since. http://www.hustonsmith.net/dvd.htm

I'm grinding the old axiom of "if you love something, then let it go" If I become attached to the outcome of any given situation, my peace depends on how things go. True? Like our buddy XianAnarchist explained in his words about process theology, we are all processes. You could rephrase that to say, "We are all situations". I love my wife, but if I become attached to her (admittedly, I do) then my peace depends on her. She, as a situation, will not always go the way I want it to. I suppose unconditional love means loving someone no matter what they do and no matter how you feel. Personally, I have a hard time loving when I'm not at peace. So I see how unconditional love and unattached love are different, but for me they are inextricable. When I am not attached, I am free to love her no matter what. I see this as similar to God's relationship with creation.

Oops! I jumped the gun. There is more to your response than relativity. A love that comes out of non-attachment is known to Christians as Unconditional love. I don't understand your assumption that a God that loves unconditionally is impersonal.

Geez...do I have to answer that? I was so proud with how short my last post was! I think that you are on to something with the notion of 'relationship' being the reason for creation. Through relationship, God experiences. Does God categorize experiences into good or bad? Why should God do this? I do it because it simplifies my life. In my short-sightedness, I want to experience as many of the things that I consider to be good and as few of the things that I consider to be bad. I suspect God wants to experience all things.

Hurt requires attachment and a view of things as either good or bad. Love does not. That is why God will not be hurt, but can still love.

BeachOfEden, Although I haven't been as regularly exposed to this kind of deal as you have, I have had my experiences with it (not JW, but Church of Christ). I found that it helped me to assume the best of intentions of the person. I assumed that they were acting out of love for me and faithfulness to God. Yes, it's a different path than yours. Yes, it's a path that involves persuasion and conversion. Given what they believe about salvation though, shouldn't they do everything in their power to help you? What would happen if you responded with total sincerity with something like, "Thank you so much for caring about me. Your love and concern is truly a blessing. God bless you." (says Fatherman atop of his easier-said-than-done tower)

Yes, I think there is an important balance to be struck between corporate and individual focus. The primary reason I'm a church goer is to commune with the body of Christ. Corporate worship, prayer, and mission is essential, no doubt. But Jesus modeled and preached a pattern of corporate and private ( joining and retreating) in the scripture. Christianity is "primarily" about bringing peace and love to a struggling world. How can we share love and peace with the world if we do not first have love and peace in our own hearts? That is what "self-actualization" in the spiritual sense is all about! Realizing one's full potential for love and peace. 1.) Realize or Actualize true self 2.) Realize God (God is already actualized) 3.) In doing this, you will realize your purpose in the world, then .... 4.) DO IT!

I wondered if there were any fellow PotterHeads here! I've read Narnia several times (as a kid mainly). I'm about to read them to my kids since the movies are being made. I recently read "The Magician's Nephew" on my own, though. It contains one of the most moving scenes of Creation that I have ever encountered. I grew up on C.S. Lewis, Madeleine L'Engle, and George MacDonald. As an adult, the religious allegory is pretty obvious, but as a kid it is not...although it was always clear to me as a child the Aslan represented God. I am grateful to Lewis for introducing such a loving image of God. Also, in Narnia, the children are co-creators with Aslan (pretty progressive thought). I'm not sure that I would consider Lewis, strictly speaking, conservative. In some ways he is brutally so, but in others he is not. I would call him a strong-minded, free thinker.

Thanks, BeachOfEden for this topic. I've enjoyed reading it. I think there is definitely something to grounding oneself in a well-developed, time-tested tradition. Unfortunately, Martin Luther did a good job of removing mysticism from much of Christian practice with his reformation. I envy the Catholic traditions. So where do we look in protestantism for a traditional form of mysticism? I don't know, I don't really care all that much. We (humans) are creators. We will find our way to God inside or outside a traditional structure. I think that it is more of a spiritual orientation. It is not the only way, it is just the way that some folks experience God. Exploring it will either reveal that orientation or not (nothing dangerous about it). I do recognize a Truth in your statement though: Do not enter into any kind of relationship with the Almighty unless you are prepared to be radically changed forever. ********************************************************* I think there are some potential pitfalls that I've seen and fallen into with "New Age" communities. Any community has a jargin or lingo and expected behavior. New Agers sometimes have a very distinctive way of talking, relating, and behaving. You see, since one of the goals of any path to enlightenment is to achieve a constant awareness of or connection with God, people who practice sometimes think they need act a certain way: Blissed Out. The thing is, unless you are called to be a monk or renunciate of some sort, you've got to land sometimes. Also, being aware of God doesn't mean you have to talk like a passage of ancient scripture 24/7....What is was...what was will be...what will be will surely come to pass.... It's about getting clear, not getting cloudy! I think I understand what you are saying, but I think you may also have a misunderstanding. Yes, New Age and Mysticism practice a lot of personal spiritual practices (not as corporate). But it is usually about transcending the ego-self, not indulging it as you seem to be suggesting. It's about reconciliation with God and the Universe (which includes the community).