JosephM

Paul, It seems to me the answer may be Yes but then whom or what is the source of that free will ? Is it really free will? From a Christian biblical perspective Jesus is recorded saying he does not do his own will or works but the Father who sent him. (or even the famous Luke 22:42 passage - "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."). If he did not take ownership it seems he is acknowledging to me in essence there is only your self will and the will of God (the source of all) Does that really leave any room for such a concept as 'free will' for humans ? Perhaps yes, IF you define it a certain way. Does relinquishing ones own will make it free? Joseph

Welcome Bryan and thanks for sharing your thoughts. I like your statement "God to me is the ultimate love and forgiveness" . Forgiveness is what opened the door for me personally. However it was my own lack of forgiveness for another that was my obstacle. It seems to me, God's forgiveness is always there and goes without saying. In fact IF i were speaking for God, i would say, "there is nothing to forgive" . Anyway, thanks for your heart felt introduction and welcome to the community, Joseph

A good question to ask oneself is.... If there is such a thing as free will .... then what is it that the will must be free from that makes it free will? How does one even define the concept of free will or even free choice? How can we in this body, be free from any constraints , physical, emotional, chemical, social or otherwise? It seems to me if one can get beyond those constraints to what some refer to as 'no self' the question of free will or free choice or not, doesn't even come up. Just musing, Joseph

Welcome to the forum Elizabeth. It is easy to get stuck in a religion when one is brainwashed on a regular basis as a child with peer pressure from others who have also been subjected to the same teachings and circular logic. It seems to me the the 'roadblock' holding so many in bondage is the traditional view of the Bible that has been presented to many from childhood. Accepting it as the absolute and literal "Word of God" seems to me to present one with a position that makes it most difficult to start a meaningful journey to freedom. I'm am joyed that Bishop Spong was able to contribute to your eye-opening search for a more meaningful journey. Again Welcome, Joseph

Paul, It does seem to me that we have been given 'dominion' over the plant and animal kingdom, at least at this present time. Not saying killing animals or plants is 'right' or 'wrong', 'moral' or 'immoral', just that there are many other life forms sharing our planet that are at our mercy and at the mercy of each other and subject to consumption by those higher on the chain. I personally see nothing inherently lacking compassion (excluding of course poor treatment and killing methods by some humans) in the food cycle itself . I certainly would agree that we humans have both the means and a great responsibility to do our best to maintain balance, and a grateful attitude for and compassionate treatment of other life forms that contribute to our survival. It seems certain to me that we could sustain life for ourselves as vegetarians if we choose but i don't see that making it a requirement to stop raising domesticated animals for consumption or to refuse meat. Perhaps someday we will progress to a point where even raising and eating plants may not be necessary for our survival and we will manufacture synthetic foods for our consumption? Perhaps we will evolve physically to the point where the energy from the sun, and water alone will be all that is required to sustain human life? However , until that day, if ever, the universe being neither moral or immoral, bringing forth drought, volcanoes, floods, tsunamis, earthquakes, tornadoes, disease etc. and other natural disasters beyond our conscious control may continue to irradiate with indifference parts of civilization, man, and animal and plants alike. Death seems to me to be a change in form perhaps to non-form rather than the end. Consequently, i do not see the tragedy in the humane raising and killing of livestock for consumption and other uses. Joseph Disclaimer - , i am a meat and vegetable eater and respectful of those who choose differently.

Welcome toi the community SLASH, Seems to me from your post that you will fit in quite well. Joseph

Billy, Welcome to this online community. Your story is familiar and i share your joy in being liberated from being boxed in by blind acceptance masking as faith in fundamental Christianity. May your journey be filled with love and an inward peace that cannot be robbed by other men and their myths. Joseph

Welcome Pam, Good to have you here. I am happy you have found an acceptable church at this point in your journey. It seems to me to be very productive to watch our thoughts such as you mentioned in your last paragraph and not put too much stock in them. After all, who knows where they came from? Most of them seem to me to be conditioned from our past programming. They seem to lose power over us as we are more conscious of them and acknowledge them for what they are. It seems at times good to me to rather laugh at them then to let them lead me. Peace, Joseph

To All, I noticed that a number of new members were not responding to comments made to their posts until i notified them by PM. I also noticed decreased post activity since our last update. It seems a default that was set to notify a member by email when someone quoted his/her post was no longer active . I set the default now so that if you are a member and someone quotes your post you will be notified by email. I believe an individual can still change it if not desired but it will be the default for new members not setting personal notifications in their profile. I hope this helps resolve the problem without creating new ones. JosephM

Welcome to the community Tiger Lily, I think your thoughts are quite normal for one who is not prone to blind acceptance and i am happy that you have found an acceptable Christian church. (at least for this point in your journey) it seems to me that 'truth' is not something that is passed on by mere words but rather brought to light by self discovery. Words themselves point in many directions but truth becomes self-evident as the false is exposed.. Love and Peace, Joseph

Steve, In my view, while it is very different from fundamentalists and perhaps they are more prone to blind acceptance rather than thinking, i certainly would not concur with the labels arrogant and judgemental for all of them. I am acquainted with many who attend fundamental churches and agree with the doctrine out of conditioning and perhaps ignorance yet do not display those characteristics ( arrogant and judgemental) you speak of.. I find both good and spoiled fruit among all labels. Perhaps i am alone in my perception but since i was once classified as fundamental, i seem to see them differently than you might. Peace, Joseph

Hi Jason, I think you will find most here are comfortable and even if they disagree would respect your right to hold your own views. Personally i don't see how it would be just a mistranslation by Mathew. I say this because in Math 1:18-24 he tells a story as if the virgin birth is fact and then uses the old testament as if to reinforce his story. If one excludes the OT reference he makes he still tells a story of what an angel said to Joseph that is not from the OT and which in my view makes it more than just a mistranslation. It seems to me it is either true or he is propagating a myth. I am inclined to believe the latter . Joseph

Welcome Jason, Thanks for the music link. Very relaxing voice and videos. Joseph

"Don't seek happiness. If you seek it, you won't find it, because seeking is the antithesis of happiness. Happiness is ever elusive, but freedom from unhappiness is attainable now, by facing what is rather than making up stories about it. Unhappiness covers up your natural state of well-being and inner peace, the source of true happiness." Eckhart Tolle (from "A New Earth")

Greetings FireDragon, Welcome to the community. We have no dogmatic "evangelical protestant moderators." here that i am aware of. All views are welcome, even those of that persuasion but they are of course expected to be respectful and courteous to those persons who hold different views. With guidelines and etiquette that require love and compassion for all it seems those who think they have all the right answers and refuse to be respectful of others who may hold opposing views usually leave of their own accord since they often fail to find the drama and hostility they often either consciously or unconsciously are seeking. I'm hoping you will find the support and encouragement here to continue your personal progressive journey.you are seeking. It seems to me you will find many "nomads" here. Joseph

Mike, No it doesn't disqualify you at all. . Progressive Christianity is an individual progressive journey and no one should be forced to accept that which he/she cannot in good conscience.accept. Neither Spong nor Borg has all the answers nor in my experience would they tell you you have to believe as they do to be considered a progressive Christian.. Both are associated with this organization and a closer study of their works would confirm this. Regards, Joseph

Hi Jericho, Welcome to the community. One does not have to subscribe to all 8 points or to any for that matter to fit in here. There is only one area of this forum (Progressive Christianity) that is limited to those who do. We welcome all those who are in a difficult period of defining what they really believe without asking that you accept anything or become a subscriber.We only ask that each show love and compassion for one another while doing so. Many here have traveled the same road as you and are here merely to support each other on their journey of self discovery. This thread on what members think Progressive Christianity is to them.may be helpful to you. Joseph

Yes Steve, It does seem to be as you say. Another good question to then eeflect upon is " Who is it that is then liberated from clinging? Perhaps one will find both clinging and liberation are but illusion or 2 sides of the same coin? Joseph

Thanks Steve, In Christianity.... Paul is recorded saying .... " I am dead and my life is hid with Christ in God" . and also "I die daily" Fear is also to be let go but Hope being let go is quite different ? Joseph

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom said... "In one sense I do not care either, but in another I do ... If I care enough then the labels and definitions they use matter to me, especially if I want to understand them. " It seems to me doubtful that there is any real meaningful understanding discerned from a label. In the label we think we know the other because we have applied a name. Perhaps we will find that we limit people by our labels and any personal understanding it can contain or that a person may think they might have of that label? How can i even be sure by the mere sentence you have used to understand the implications it contains without further dialog and then still will i not be found lacking? Joseph

Hi Paul, it seems to me like a difficult question to answer. My daughter and family are very active in a fundamental Baptist church . When i do attend on special occasions where my grandkids are participating in a program i cringe at the words that are spoken and come out of their mouth. The indoctrination teachings they are exposed to seems like brain-washing to me.. However, it is beyond my control and i am presently convinced that any opposing view i might entertain with them unless solicited, might serve only to segregate our relationship. It does seem perplexing at times but i find peace in my experience of seeing that in time, truth surfaces of its own accord when the subject is ready. If they ask my opinion, i certainly would not hesitate to respond but that has not been the case and they are already aware from my books of alternate views. They are not activists or extremists in their actions even though one may classify their belief system as so. Basically, they are loving parents doing what they believe is right or best for their children. They are also a help for good to their community. They don't seem to be forceful in pushing their views on others and even though they may have a strong opinion on God and gays and would have little to do with them, they don't seem to wish them harm but rather pray for them. (My one brother is gay and they have kept their belief to themselves concerning him) I would not put too much weight on what they say they belief but more on their actions. As long as they are not harmful i would echo "live and let live" Joseph

On happininess....... "You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength." Marcus Aurelius Joseph

Welcome searchingmom, Thank you for the introduction. In my experience, what you are going through can be a very painful or saddening experience. Change is usually difficult for most of us but rest assured you do have a spiritual relationship with God or you wouldn't be felling that 'unction' for change. It may seem like we are losing something and there is a somewhat lost feeling and much uncertainty for a time but know that God is with you and could never leave you. Your very 'being' and Life/Existence itself will;attest to this and is confirmation. May the serenity of nature in the park bring you an inward peace and serenity that you seem to no longer feel in the Catholic church. Follow after love and peace with all and your steps will always be directed. May this site be a blessing to your soul as your confidence in the director of your path grows. Love in Christ, Joseph