JosephM

Oki, The definition of fear...." an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat."seems to me to be a characteristic applicable to men and their beliefs and not of God. While God can be feared if one chooses to believe one should fear or it is somehow beneficial to their well-being, i choose to believe that God is perfectly accepting of creation as it is and that in a concious connecting with God there is only found perfect love for all things which leaves no room for fear. To me, dichotomies such as 'love of' 'fear of' God exist only in the ego mind. It seems to me if one sees God as a person then it is natural to see such a dichotomy as you mention. Personally, i do not see God in that light. Joseph

Hi Okie and welcome to the community. I moved your post into your own introduction thread rather than the one you posted in so that others might also welcome you that welcomed Amy. Your story is not unfamiliar to many here and i hope you will feel more at home here than you have at some churches.I look forward to your continued sharing in discussions as i see you are already doing. Joseph

MsPragmatic. The transition in my personal experience, started at the age of 50. It indeed included a feeling of aloneness filled with uncertainties and forsaken / rejected by what i had considered good friends. Friends who no longer wished to be friends with what they considered the lost and and overtaken by 'Satan'. It was surely a most painful time for me. To me deconstruction was absolutely necessary although it left me empty of the security i had previously accepted. In time there arose by grace a new freedom that filled me with personal experiences and allowed those experiences to transform me or build so to speak, a new building not made with other men hands like the one built through a concept of blind faith and doctrine dictated by a church system of men that was destined to crumble. Now i have found a deep peace even in uncertainty. I no longer feel alone or deserted. God to me (not as defined by the church as a person) is an ever-present reality, inseparable from Life itself, that is both seen as within and without and no longer distant... I accept each person as they are in their journey. No hard feelings remain for those who turned against me as i myself was once trapped in the same mire. May the grace of God continue to enlighten you as i am sure it will on the journey for Truth that you have been set upon. Sincerely, Joseph

I would echo Paul's words and add that even the Bible itself records that they were first called Christians in Antioch. They were merely followers of Jesus and more specifically in my view what they saw in him as the anointing (Christ) of God. (in my view a word not limited to one individual) but rather a spirit of oneness).They had no real Bibles as we have today and the few letters that circulated were just that... letters and not "the word of God" per se as the church system of this time would have us believe. Many would classify PC'ers as agnostic, atheist, etc because we may not see God in the same light as the organized church system would have us. As Paul said above most here do not limit themselves to one book as inerrant or truth. The eight points of PC HERE are general and exclude doctrine and dogma as it is a progressive journey of discovery rather than any fixed belief dictated by any organization. At the same time we have no problem with those who remain respectful even though they may have a different view/opinion. Actions and courtesy always speak louder than beliefs here. Each person speaks for him/her self here including me. That is the nature of a progressive Christian. We may all be at different points in our journey. Joseph

Welcome MsPragmatic, As you, I think one is better off trusting their own understanding and experience rather than the teachings of another when it comes to spiritual things..Teachings are fine but without personal reasoning and ones own life experiences as confirmations it seems to me one can surely be misled. Joseph

Skyseeker, In my view, The law of liberty is not a law or book. It is freedom from the law. One translation (James 1:25 american standard) is "But he that looketh into the perfect law, the law of liberty" In other words the perfect law is "liberty" which the dictionary defines as "the state or condition of people who are able to act and speak freely. : the power to do or choose what you want to" Joseph

Thanks Steve, Yes we do have many guests and your comments are most welcome as they seem to be respectful of others. Also i might note my comments above do not speak for anyone but myself as my experience indicates while there is much commonality among PC'ers, there are also differences of views/opinions that i find refreshing and have been helpful in ways to my own journey over the long run..Agreement is never a requirement here but courtesy and respectful conversation remains paramount . Joseph

Steve, I would concur with your observation concerning the Progressive Christian and do not see it as a negative. Concerning allegiance to a religion...... in my experience allegiance concerning ones spiritual journey has its drawbacks and i personally do not see it "for the best". Possibly best for the associated church system demanding that allegiance but not for the individual who knows or has learned that it is wisest not to place ones trust concerning his/her spiritual journey in man or a system of beliefs made by men. PC to me, is a individual journey and blind allegiance on dogma and doctrine or beliefs one cannot or has not experienced for oneself are not in my view a wise part to hold to. It seems to me, in my experience to be rather counterproductive to real depth. When i let go of that allegiance real freedom entered and as experience grew, in time i became comfortable with uncertainty which no longer proved to be an enemy to my journey but rather an open door through which light is free to enter. Just my own experience and thoughts concerning some of your post comments. Joseph

Steve said "A "fundamental equivalent" would be a foundational teaching by Jesus or the Buddha which most reasonable people could agree are virtually the same, or at least very similar." Personally i am not concerned whether most 'reasonable people' (whatever that means) could agree or not in the similarity of teachings. Certainly, there is no argument that there are strong fundamental differences with traditional church interpretations but to me i find that studying and practicing Buddhism has provided great insights into the words of Jesus and visa versa. In fact i see much commonality in the teachings of the Tao also with not only Jesus teachings but those found throughout the Bible. A long thread on the Tao that took place here can be found HERE. The 'Kingdom of Heaven or God' , which Jesus spoke of so often to me is not a physical place as commonly taught by the church system but to me an ever-present reality that is here Now and the end to all suffering. I would not argue this with another because that is only my personal experience which i value above what someone else might be teaching.. My own experience and study of the Greek agree and a short explanation can be found here in THIS THREAD POST if you are curious. Joseph

Steve, In my view, on the contrary, there are indeed some equivalents at a deep level of understanding even though the words of the time differ and some understandings of church doctrine are near impossible to reconcile.. Jesus is recorded saying ... In this world ye shall have tribulation (sufferring) but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Both his teachings and Paul's teachings teach us how to overcome by dying to or some might say crucifying self so that we also may overcome the world (in which resides sufferring). Some think the cessation is in the next life but i am NOW a new creature in Christ and old things have past away and all things become new.. I feel pain in the world but "I" ( the life that i now identify with) is not of this world and i have been freed from suffering because it is not i that lives but Christ that lives in me.. Tariki (Derek) on this forum is a practicing Buddhist who is very knowledgeable in both traditions and especially with the writings of Christian Thomas Merton, Meister Eckhart and others.. Read THIS THREAD for some interesting comments that i think at least partially address your points.. Joseph PS Christian progressive Marcus Borg has even written an entire books on the parallel sayings of Buddha and Jesus You tube review HERE

Actually i believe you will find Buddhism in India approximately 500 years before Jesus. Myself, i find much in common with the teachings of Jesus and the Buddha. However, one must dig really deep for the similarities. Joseph

If it bothers you perhaps it is something you will have to get over ..... or not .... and just live with it. PC as you are now aware is not a belief system on this site.and to me that is a strength.rather than a weakness. that's my thoughts anyway, Joseph

You didn't.

Matteoiam said, "As far as the resurrection when Christians like Marcus Borg discuss it then why not accept it. The view of the more fundamentalist Chrustian of the resurrection is no more or less true than the PC." Just for your information.... It is my experience that Murcus Borg, while on staff here does not define what a person must or must not accept concerning the ressurextion to be a PC,,,, and..... There is no official view for PC of the resurrection to compare with a fundamentalist Christian. Certainly you may find a majority of PCer's holding a particular view but PC as defined by Progressive Christianity.org is a journey rather than a particular view or doctrine. Joseph

Welcome Fred, Your story is not unfamiliar with my own experience and i think also many others here, Checked out your blog but hoping you will find your stop here and this community a most favorable and already developed platform for you to engage in the topics/discussions that are important and of interest to you in your journey. Joseph PS A few of the people you mention that have been a great help to you and you have thanked in your post, (Borg, Spong, and Armstrong) are part of our leadership and staff here at Progressive Christianity.org/

Hi lotharson Hi lotharson, It seems to me that they were first called Christians in Antioch according to the historical account in the book of Acts. Perhaps a follower of Jesus is sufficient without all the dogma and doctrine baggage? It seems to me that even the the apostles (Paul & Peter) were in disagreement on some beliefs. Perhaps they were all still learning as are we all as we journey on the path of truth. Joseph

Welcome JesusRadical, Hoping you find the community here refreshing and nourishing to your spirit. Feel free to express your views and join in the discussions. Joseph

Hi Ronald and welcome. So glad you are finding this site helpful to your journey and i look forward to your participation here. Joseph

We certainly won't threaten you with Hell or fire and brimstone for doing so..... Seriously, Steve, it ts good to have you here sharing your perspective and questions. Joseph

Steve, I think it is perfectly acceptable for a progressive Christian to hold trinity views . At the same time I see no need to require the trinity or any particular understanding of such a view as a prerequisite for being a PC. As Norm and Paul point out, PC is more a dynamic way of living than any one fixed doctrine. if your understanding of the trinity is meaningful to your Christian walk, I think that is good. It does not speak for or against the label of progressive Christian here. It seems to me, What you throw out of traditional views and when is in your own hands. To some that is a scary thing but to PC here it is a freedom to grow on ones own journey. Other than the 8 points , we have so far found no need for other belief requirements to still carry a Christian label. While some others may not agree, that is their prerogative . Joseph

Steve, That is not exactly the topic or question of this thread as alluded to by Paul.. Perhaps it should be asked in its own thread? You could start by reading the 8 points of PC and find some commonality to the teachings of Jesus in the gospels and then start a new thread.. Also it is my experience that most PC's (but not all) have migrated from an extensive background in traditional Christianity and take enough of the main or what they consider the relevant message of Jesus with them to be called Christians. ie: Love..... what Jesus is recorded indicating as the greatest commandment.on which all others hang. Perhaps the church system is responsible for all the baggage? Perhaps the real Christian message is about living a life of Love, sacrifice and caring? Perhaps it is not about the trinity, the person, the scripture as the word of God, the virgin birth, the second coming as taught, and other traditional church doctrines and dogma? These dogmas and doctrine may have a form of worship but in my experience , in themselves, lack the real individual transformational power of a true relationship or oneness with God which i believe Jesus taught? Joseph

Steve, A progressive Christian may or may not hold orthodox views. Remember a progressive Christian as defined here on this site is on a progressive journey with his/her approach to God or the Divine found at least in part through the life and teachings of Jesus. (not necessarily all the recorded teachings) It seems to me that what happens from that point is not based on traditional or orthodox Christian dogma or doctrine but rather a product of that individuals journey. To see what progressive Christianity means to those who identify as PC's check out ----> this thread. pinned on this site. Joseph

Daniel, It seems to me that peace can be found through a sincere process of deconstruction, followed by reconstruction. By deconstruction i mean tearing apart by reason , logic and other means at your avial all that which has been taught us or force-fed through organized religion and others. Sort of an erasing of all that is seen as false followed by self knowledge construction. I am of the view that truth is available and intrinsic to all and that if we take the building that we have allowed others to build for us and bring it to the ground ( a painful process for most) and then allow the very life force that sustains us to teach us we will find our way. Others may inspire you and be vessels that assist you in your journey but ultimately truth is within you. It is always there even as the sun is always there on overcast days but the obstacles (cloulds must be removed for the truth (sun) to appear. How long is the process? In my view, it is not important. Focus on the journey in this moment and the destination will take care of itself. Just thoughts triggered from reading your post, Joseph

I would answer the question with ...... Jesus was born for the same reason as any other person. To fulfil the purpose for which that individual was created in accordance with the dance of the whole. Joseph

The Link to that starting at Part 1 is --------> HERE. by Ed Taylor Joseph