JosephM

Derek, I would echo your thoughts and conclusions on the matter with nothing to add. Joseph

Hornet, I don't believe for other people. Nor do i have an opinion on what they should or shouldn't go with . In my view, each must journey that road for themself and if i can offer some insight of benefit along the way, that is good. If not the universe is most capable of offering its own insight. Just a position i often take and find a measure of peace in, Joseph

Thanks Paul, I found it very insightful and at the core of most religious / spiritual thought. Joseph

Hornet, I do not need to know that my religion or belief system is true. I shed that requirement some time ago. In my view, 'belief systems' are just that...belief systems. They are not truths. To me, they are merely man's vain attempt at truth to answer questions concerning life and the nature of things. To me, God is not a belief system but rather an ever-present reality that i experience. There is no need for words to describe that reality but of course that doesn't stop one from trying to communicate such in words to point to that reality. Joseph

Welcome to the community Jane Austen fan, I assume you are a fan of fiction and Jane Austen in particular. Sounds like you are in quite a predicament being a youth leader. It is a most difficult position to be in when one is in transition and others seem to be stuck in traditional teachings. Patience is a a great asset to have at such times as it seems to me so difficult for many to see and move past the traditional programming of the 'herd' even though it sounds so reasonable to us in our latter years to do so. Good to have you here and looking forward to hearing your perspectives and insights. i assume you are from the UK as are some other active members here. Welcome again, Joseph

Rom, I watched much of it. Thanks, Joseph

Hi P.C. Just a minor Caution..... As a matter of etiquette we try not to make statements here like that as it basically says that anyone that believes in evolution is ridiculous or their beliefs are ridiculous. It may be okay to believe that but it is better left unsaid because it is inflammatory in nature and disrespectful of those who may disagree with you. In short, one can make ones point without getting personal by omitting such inferences in ones posts.. . See guidelines HERE.. Thanks for your cooperation, JosephM(as Moderator)

C. P., I would mind my own business on such an issue. I don't think any robbery is in progress here and they are his kids and he is an adult. Of course if he asks your opinion, i think it would be appropriate for you to give it and then bow out. It is enough to run ones own life and give opinions only when asked or where it is a more serious issue. Whose to say what is right or wrong on such an issue? Just my experience and opinion. Joseph

From a dualistic standpoint, it seems to me , that Hell is as real as the screen you are reading this post on. While it certainly cannot be seen directly with your eyes, it seems to me its effects indeed can be seen. In my experience, one can experience what i see as Hell directly as feelings, uncontrolled thoughts, or negative emotions. It may not have a physical locality that you can identify but it seems you can non-the-less experience its depths in relation to the depth or extremeness of tormenting jelousy, covetness, anger, grief, sorrow, etc. or depression one may pass through. It also seems to me that in a sense, Hell is a state of non-acceptance or mental resistance to what is in the moment. Perhaps a burning desire that cannot be filled or quenched. Obviously this is not exactly the way traditional Christianity teaches but to me, i see those in some level of torment daily. On the other hand i see people who experience Heaven daily. I read of experiences on this forum that convince me that many others here have also experienced some depth of both even if they don't identify it with those words. (Hell or Heaven). Just musing, Joseph

Perhaps it is not an either or. Perhaps the question is flawed and as Mateo points out that evolution is a tool or perhaps better yet the process by which God manifests creation. It seems to me evolution is intelligent design. Believing in evolution doesn't negate God except to those who possibly view the one exclusive of the other. Or try to define God or evolution in limited terms or with inadequate knowledge. Just musing, Joseph

To me, the church is always evolving. Sometimes a few branch must die so nutrients can be diverted where new growth can take place. The church need not be a physical institution. It is my opinion that it is not. and i find that very refreshing. Joseph

Greetings Michael, Welcome to the community of fellow travelers. Make yourself at home. Looking forward to your sharing and reading your comments. Joseph

Mateo, It seems to me that Paul in no way is telling others they are wrong and he is right. His words are carefully written and respectful of differing opinions. True, some people may take offence anyway but where opinions are given in the area of religion, that is a common occurrence that can't be helped on forums such as this. It seems to me that many of your comments in posts have been critical of PCer's yet no one is accusing you of telling people they are wrong and you are right. That is my opinion anyway as a member. Joseph

Hi CP, Welcome to the forum. Took a glance at your book and it seems to me you will find little IF ANY disagreement in this community. Most have been down the same path of church programming, then doubt, questioning and living with uncertainty. (WHICH IS NOT A BAD THING AT ALL) Take your time and browse around the forum. While you will find a few fundamentalists Christians stop in from time to time (and are welcomed) , we are for the most part a mixed bag of progressive labels here with most coming from a Christian background that identify with some of the insightful teachings of Jesus and Paul but seeing things in a different light than is commonly taught in traditional Christian churches. Personally i went through much of the same as you and also published a book called "Throwing away God" (metaphor) which exposed 5 false premises of the traditional Christian church system (one of which chapters was titled "Heaven and Hell" that succeeded in banishing me from the traditional Christian church and my role as a licensed evangelist. Anyway, feel free to introduce yourself in the Water Cooler (introductions) area of this forum and make yourself at home. Look forward to your mutual participation in sharing and gaining insights from progressive Christians and others here. Joseph

Thanks for the recommendation Steve. Sounds interesting. Joseph

Andy, Let me ask you. What significance do you think you should give to the creed and why? As far as i know, Bishop Spong doesn't tell people what they should or shouldn't believe. He merely expresss his conclusions that he arrives at through his research and study and own questioning. Its seems to me good that you question such things. I hope you will arrive at your own conclusions through your own reasoning, questions , experiences and insight shared by others. Bishop Spong addresses questions through his newsletters/essays. Information can be found HERE. This forum is for discussiion of his newsletter/essay items but as of this date he has never responded to questions directly here. Joseph

Mow, I think there comes a time in ones spiritual development where one may be no longer attracted or has a diminished interest in violent sports such as football or boxing or other related items that in the past may have stimulated ones passions. It seems to me the drama we once were interested in which may have given us a stronger sense of self becomes less attractive and is replaced by a deeper peace and an affinity for more peaceful endeavors like friendships and helping others. That is just my own experience and in no way is meant to demonize any sport or person who enjoys such pastimes. I think all that we go through is a necessary experience for each one of us to bring us where we are at the moment. To me nothing in itself is evil but of course all things that we sow have a reaping. Joseph

Jaia, Just speaking for myself..... That day has no meaning to me than any other day. Joseph

Greeting Robert, Thanks for the introduction and welcome to the community. As you , i also shared in a large number of different jobs during my working career.from trash collecting to government work to entrepreneur . Life is a journey so whatever you do you might as well enjoy the ride, your family and your development. Joseph..

Thanks for the interesting food for thought Steve, Pete and Luvtosew. The word free will i find defined as "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity" or "the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God" or others definitions similar to the apparent human ability to make choices that are not externally determined. The definition itself seems to me varied and limited. The word "will" is not where it gets confusing but rather with it being prefixed by the word "free". To me the word "free" implies exempt from any external authority or interference or restriction. I have to ask myself ... How can i make choices.... that are truly exempt from the summation of my restricted limited knowledge most of which it seems is learned externally? That are exempt from my limited environmental and personal chemical influences? That are exempt from the unwritten laws on my heart and restrictions that i have made for myself through past and abiding judgments. That are exempt from choices and the influences of those restrictions and laws externally made for me? In that sense, it seems to me that i if i am honest with myself, i see that my choices are indeed mine to make, but not at all in the true sense of what i have just questioned being "free". This understanding to me gives me a sense of compassion and understanding for the choices of my own and others. It fills me with an eagerness or better said with an unction to refrain or abstain from judgement of self and others. I see this as a great blessing and source of deep peace in my life. It seems to me to live thinking that i have somehow by my own "free" choices earned or am more deserving of the things i may possess or been given is to live in what i perceive as the illusion of separateness from others and the universe. Therefore on a spiritual level i personally do not accept the word "free" as related to will or choice but at the same time i accept the right for others to believe differently or with there own definition. Regardless of ones position on the matter i do not view anothers position as right or wrong. It seems to me, whatever works in ones journey will come to light. My current thoughts on the subject, Joseph

It seems to me ones choice is based or influenced on a myriad of factors of which some we may be familiar with and some which are unknown or what some commonly refer to as unconscious factors. If choice was truly free, it seems to me it would have to not be limited to influences from the universe and all that that entails. It seems one would have to posses a complete knowledge of all things for choice to be truly free. Therefore i conclude that choice is ever evolving and as a human, free choice is deceptive and illusory in nature. But then again, what do i know? It is just my own perception. Joseph

We always have choice . The real question to me is ... is that choice truly free or is it the product of an evolution of consciousness. It seems to me it is the latter. Of course i also as Pete admit i have turned out in many ways different in my beliefs from the way i was raised but then i have to ask .. Why? What influenced my departure? And then the real question arises... If i were you in all ways the same (identical chemistry, DNA, experience, environment and influences etc down to the identical minutest detail), would i be any different than you are today? And my intuition tells me no. I would of course be what you call you. In that sense where is true free will? Choice brings us to where we are but one might ask...why have i chose differently? I perceive i can not be any different than i am in this moment. All 'could have's' based on different choices that i could have made are now hypothetical to me with no real existence in reality. Just some thoughts, Joseph

Rom, Kudos. In my view, a most excellent essay that is intriguing , concise and challenging. My knowledge of philosophy, science and chemistry is extremely limited as i have no formal college degree other than Bible school. Nor am i well read in such matters. However, from experience and self examination, i have come to the same conclusions that your essay suggests. I have nothing to challenge of what you say in your essay but hopefully others will . The essay has the possibility to make an interesting respectful discussion on what i view as a number of most difficult understandings for an individual to consider or accept, all related to the question of free will. IMPORTANT NOTE: Saying my conclusions are the same or similar is not to be construed as any official PC position or say your essay is correct or a different opinion another may come to is wrong, only that i personally speak for myself and as an individual have come in my journey to a similar understanding. Thanks for your essay, Will check back in, in a day or so, Joseph