JosephM

Jim, I certainly don't disagree that the OT taken as the "Word of God" has been the impetus of much violence​ in the history of man. Personally i just do not favor engaging in the battle to decanonize it. I prefer education and de-mystifying it to what it is. It seems to me that will naturally decanonize it over time as people are ready which is already happening with many PC's. Anyway, i don't think original Christianity was based on a book although the traditional church system seems to always make it so. I believe it was based on a message that was transmitted by more than just words even as can be today. For me, i call it Christianity because it was exemplified by Jesus who we see as (Christ) 'anointed of God', ( or as a smearing together or Oneness with God "Christos") which title is not limited to a single man or woman. It was just a small portion of the recorded message of Jesus (forgiveness of others/self) that provided the way for me to find an approach to God. From that point, i find, no one single book is necessary but many can be helpful. I see Christ in many people whether they refer to themselves as Christians or not. I believe there were people even before Jesus that exemplified that spirit. Christ was around long before the man Jesus but he is one of our best recorded and familiar examples of that spirit of love that is found in Christ. So, for some Progressive Christians and progressives in general , i think the label they call themselves is not as important as behavior or how they live their life. Joseph

Jim, I think you make good points here and in the first chapter of your book. Yet even the NT has problems in it. As progressive Christians why should we be limited to any one book as if all that has to be said has been said in the language of our times? IMO, even the NT must be read in context of the times it was written. It is a series of letters and Gospels of which as you know there are more. Do you remove them also? Joseph

PS... BTW Jim, my 2 books can be found at Amazon also >> HERE and >> HERE. I found the novel (my second book) much more effective and better received by fundamental or traditional Christians than just using the Bible writings (the first book) itself to make my points. Joseph

Jim, After extended delays with Christian publishers because of the content of my books, i also found self-publishing my only option some 10 years ago. Today they are more widely received thanks to the more popular writers such as Borg, Spong and others. I will take a look at your sample read on Amazon. Joseph

Jim, Yes, education of course, does not always work. Yet it seems to me to be the most practical option. Undoing past programming is not for everyone at the present. Sooner or later over the course of the evolution of his/her consciousness, the student will be ready. Sometimes as you may know, we have to hit a dead end before we realize we took a 'wrong' turn. It can be painful to the student and others but perhaps it was a necessary step for the individuals concerned? Joseph PS As your title alludes to... It can be costly.

Jim, Glad to have you active again. I would agree that it would be an improvement if the NT should be the book for Christians. It seems to me, as with you, it is indeed a stumbling block to many. When we create a new Will and Testament we usually destroy the old one so there will not be any confusion among those concerned. Howbeit that is not the case with the OT and NT? Did you finish your book and get it published? If so, what is the title? Again , Glad you have returned and i look forward to reading your posts. Joseph

Chado, Welcome to the community and thank you for your so far thoughtful posts. Glad to hear you are enjoying your Spong books and i am looking forward to the sharing of your thoughts and ideas. I especially admire the way (in another post) you handle those of different beliefs and find the way they behave and are motivated more important than their words alone. Again welcome, Joseph

Rhino, It seems to me that everything we do including playing the "bad guy" in games and enjoying it, is not a case of being a sinful act. To me, it is more a case of making wise or unwise choices. I would not condemn unwise choices but rather refer to them as poor or unskillful life choices. Instead of leading one to peace and joy these choices seem to strengthen the more base emotions in us. This i see as not only having respective negative consequences in areas of life but lead to more unconscious actions that only serves to strengthen ego. Doing so i perceive creates more fear , perceived separation from others and God, and the stress and anxiety that often seems to go along with it. Just my personal take on it, Joseph

Gardener, I think you will find that Progressive Christianity is growing and catching on quite well. Authors and teachers such as Spong, Borg, Armstrong and others have sold millions of books around the world to those who are not satisfied with traditional Christian church teachings and dogmas. There are now hundreds of affiliated progressive Churches with this organization alone and thousands globally. If you hang out with what you call "conservative Christians" then of course one might be a bit pessinistic or less optomistic than one who associates more with those who are more open-minded . It seems to me there is nothing to fear. Truth has a way of exposing itself when the student is ready. Perhaps you would be surprised at the number of Christians now not only familiar with other gospels but also familiar and knowledgeable with more than one religion who identify with this PC movement. Joseph

Gardener, The definition of idolatry, according to Webster, is “the worship of idols or excessive devotion to, or reverence for some person or thing.” The cannonization of the books of the Bible into its form as the Bible is in my opinion not idolatry. While most anything can be made into an idol, forming a single canon from a series of writings to be authoritative or inspiring is in itself not an idol or idolatry. Idolatry requires worship or excessive devotion or reverence to become such. In that case it is only idolatry to the one that personally makes it such. At least that is my perception. Joseph

, Migdalin, I agree with Paul's approach being education. To me, the most practical way would be gaining a better understanding of what the Bible really is. That alone can intelligently change ones perspective of its content and influence the way it is read. There are a host of good scholarly books by such Progressive Christian authors and teachers such as Marcus Borg, Bishop Spong, Karen Armstrong and many others who do a wonderful job in that area. Migdalin, I would be interested in learning of your familiarity or exposure with any of those authors. Also, i would be interested in learning a bit about any of your personal religious/theology background or experience that you would be willing to share. Perhaps you would be so kind to post an introduction in the Watercooler area as is customary so members in this community can get to know a bit about you and your interest in PC. Thanks in advance. Joseph

Sin in OT or Abrahamic contexts is the act of violating God's commandments/will or an offense against a moral law. To me, in NT context, the law of love in Christ has made me free from the law of sin and death. In essence All things are lawful but all things have consequences and are capable of bringing me under the power of the spirit of my actions. Personally, i reckon myself dead to sin and the guilt and the self condemnation that it entails. If i am unconditionally forgiving of others and walking in the light that is afforded me then sin for me is non-existent. At least that is my understanding of the concept of sin. Is computer games sinful? If you esteem it as such and then do it, yes, to you it is sin. Is smoking sin? If you esteem it as such and then do it, yes to you it is sin. Is drinking a sin? Is eating meat a sin? If you esteem ......... etc. To me, faith in the Truth has made me free from what i perceive as such ignorance , dogma and doctrines of men. Joseph

Hi Migdalin, I don't see Progressives, at least on this site, using the OT as an authoritative guide to Christian practice. Personally, i find Psalms and Proverbs in particular to contain inspiring and useful sayings and great historical context in the OT in general. I believe you will find that many progressives like Marcus Borg seem to believe that the NT Jesus must be understood in the historical and cultural context in which he lived and the OT provides a good portion of that context for a critical analysis of the NT. Understanding the historical Jesus and Christ to me is not about dogmas and doctrines even in the NT. Perhaps one might find that many progressives have no single authoritative book. After all, Jesus wrote nothing himself and the first followers had no Bible as we have today. Just some thoughts after reading your post, Joseph

Paul, I read the first chapter in this book as a sample and i must say it was presented extremely well. Borg makes a great case that i believe every open fundamentalist or new person to the Bible would benefit greatly from reading. It seems to me it would also be a great comfort and confirmation and provide clarity for those who have already progressed beyond the stage of traditional teachings. Joseph

Gardener, Success seems to me to be more a state of mind than reaching a goal. To me, he/she that is content in the moment is successful. Many measure success in dollars or abundance of accomplishments or goods. Yet if i am poor or rich it makes no difference for in Christ is peace, godliness with contentment and is great gain beyond the measure of the physical. Joseph

Paul, Some will argue that the OT does mention Hell but translated from the Hebrew word "Sheol". The KJV OT translates Sheol as "hell" 31 times , "grave" 31 times and pit 3 times. One would have to read all the occurances of Sheol in context to understand what was meant by the word. Perhaps Norm or some Jewish person on this site can shed some light on the understanding of "Sheol" from a Jewish perspective and compare it to the use of the word "hell" in the NT. Or anyone else familiar with Jewish theology and the Bible. Joseph

Good point Paul, I think there may be an explanation if one has a different understanding than some Christians may believe. Perhaps Heaven and Hell are just descriptions or realms of mental states, One could then say even though God is everywhere when one is in the realm or mental state of hell, one cannot be aware of God's presence because that state of metal activity is an obstruction to realizing that presence. Not withstanding that presence is present even though it cannot be consciously realized as such in that state. The analogy being that the sun is always present even though clouds may obstruct the view. Just some thoughts, Joseph

The question this raises is that if it is a place located within the realm of form of finite size then how is it not subject to decay as is all form? How can it exist in form forever? Perhaps it is eternal and not finite because it is not a place. Finite has a definition of limited while biblically speaking the eternal is beyond limits. Location is a concept of mind. God is biblically speaking described as Spirit and being everywhere or omnipresent. God is also biblically placed in that kingdom or realm (Heaven). If there is no place that God is not then the presence of God must include Heaven and Earth. If you are conscious of that presence here on Earth then has not Heaven come to you? Just some musings on the subject, Joseph

Hi Gardener, Thanks for the introduction. Gardening is a great healer. While i no longer have a garden, i treat my lawn like it is. Very therapeutic. Born again here at age 33. Went all the way with that path only to get quarantined from fundamental Christianity in my 50's . Now in my 60's and free from depression, fear and whatever is. Like you, i have no idea what to be when i grow up but the best part is it really doesn't matter to me. The present is enough. Hope to hear more from you and welcome to the xcommunity. Joseph

Rhino, I believe the intent of "bearing false witness" was to say that making false statements against another under oath does harm to the other and ought not to be done. It undermines the NT saying "to love yor neighbor as yourself". You ask about "sin". What is "sin" to you? To me it is a terrible thing to choose to live under. It is filled with guilt and condemnation and self inflicted torment. In Christ one is supposed to be free from the law of sin and death. Personally i choose to live not under the law but rather free from the law of sin and death. (spiritually speaking). Perhaps this short chapter on "sin" that uses the Bible writing itself to expose "sin" for the deceiver it is, might help change your understanding as it did for me. Perhaps it will be a catalyst to help you break free from the 'concept' of "sin" that may be nagging you and you may be holding on to. Joseph

Rstrats, You are posting in the debate and dialog area. Points are indeed made here. You have made 11 posts and not yet bothered to first introduce yourself in the introductions area as is customary in this community. It appears from first impressions and reading your identical posts and your dialog on at least 5 different forums that your intent may not be simply to request some writing. I could be wrong but never-the-less, you have been now placed on moderator approval of posts until you have at least introduced yourself, telling us a little about yourself and background and what you are hoping to accomplish by being a member of this community. Also please familiarize yourself with our guidelines and etiquette here should you choose to stay. Thanks for your cooperation, JosephM(as Moderator) added - PS If it is indeed just documentation you are requesting rather than a debate, a single note to limit your bandwidth use for such things in the Cafe area would suffice.

Go here Rhino http://johnshelbyspong.com/

Rhino, It seems to me, there is no God like that to understand. If people are taught and believe not what they reason or discover for themselves but rather by blindly accept traditions they are taught, there will be nothing to understand. Faith to me is not blind acceptance of tradition but rather that which comes from questioning , reason , and an individual journey led by trust in that which sustains us (God) until we come to realize for our self through the manifestations in our life that which is known yet not visibly seen. Joseph

Actually Rhino, Paul is recorded saying in 1 Tim 3:8 "Deacons in like manner chaste, not double tongued, not given to much wine" Wine was not at all forbidden anywhere i am aware of in the NT. Joseph

Hi Ron, Welcome to the community and thanks so much for sharing a bit about yourself. That of creation you seem to relate to with wonder and a sense of kinship is a real blessing. may we all come to the realization and knowledge of that connectedness . In appreciation for your presence, Joseph