JosephM

That seems a valid point to me also but then we do not really know the totality of what has brought us to the circumstances that befall us. We know very little about the mind in general and the subconscious in particular. Is it even local to the body? It seems to me NOT, although it gives the appearance it is. Yes i think God, the creator, the universe, the One, Being or whatever term you use loves animals. Joseph

Paul, I think one could say that God's love and compassion is actively demonstrated through people and that includes animals also as the recipients. Some even seem to treat their animals better than they do other people It seems to me that allowing the experience of suffering in this world to exist doesn't take anything away from a loving or compassionate God. While i don't personally wish my children to suffer, if i want to allow them to make their own choices and live their own lives rather than me forcing my will on them, then how does it make me less loving or compassionate to allow them to do so? In fact it may, in my view, be more loving not to interfere in their evolution process. THEN AGAIN, Perhaps we will find that this thing we call our life is but a vapor and the suffering that appears is but a drama and form of entertainment that we have immersed ourselves in so deeply that we forget we are merely watching the movie? That to me sounds more likely. Just musing, Joseph

Yes , sometimes Faith and Hope can carry people through difficult times. I know what you mean about not forcing yourself to believe. I try to remain open so that Faith can speak to me and Hope can carry me through. When Faith speaks, belief is not necessary, there is just a silent knowing. In my experience, it cannot be forced nor can we make it happen. It happens by itself when we are open-minded and conditions within are ripe. Joseph

Mike said, "What can I say to this testimony? I don't want to rebuke and question it." Mike, It is in my view not necessary to debunk or even reinforce another's testimony. We neither are compelled to disagree or agree. One can just wish them the best in their faith knowing that it is a progressive journey. You can find such testimonies within many different religions. I have had numerous so called 'miracles' in my life also. The conclusions we draw from them are in my experience not always correct as i later found out. I have found we often assume as facts extraneous information that which is not part of the lifes teaching lesson. As the blind man once said ... " all i know is once i was blind and now i see" . Joseph

Paul, It does seem our understanding of things is progressing and the way we look at universal purpose will most likely change as we evolve. Perhaps we may find that this life and its drama is just entertainment like a video game that we get so involved and immersed in that we forget about what is real and what is not. Either way, the universe is unfolding and we are part of it. joseph

As far as my personal belief in Karma goes............It seems to me,,,, life is a school and all about choices and consequences regardless of any particular religion or belief in karma or all that which it entails. My experience shows certain choices lead toward Love/Reverence, Joy/Serenity, Peace/Bliss, and Enlightenment/Pure consciousness while others toward Anger/Hate, Desire/Craving, Fear/Anxiety, Grief/Regret, Apathy/Despair, Guilt/Blame or Shame/Humiliation. It seems to me it is as simple as that in conceptual terms. As far as making the choices that lead to the one end of the scale versus the other, it is a lesson that each must learn for themselves. Perhaps we all pass through and revisit phases of all these levels or emotions. I believe if one places Love Joy and Peace above all other options he/she will gravitate to the choice that insure that fruition. Joseph

Steve , Just read the article you referenced. Thanks, Enjoyed the practical application and simplicity of it to a life. Joseph

Read some of the articles and i think it will make more sense. Cayce doesn't focus on the justice of it but rather that we are placed again and again in similar circumstances until we learn to make the wisest choice that lead to enlightenment or liberation.. All choices have consequences. Some describe it as the natural order of the cosmos which will eventually lead All to Love and our source For example.... If our consciousness is say stuck at a bitterness, resentment,or anger level, it is probably there because we chose unforgiveness over forgiveness. In time , sometimes many lifetimes we will again and again be faced with the the opportunity to chose differently and when we do we understand what that choice was doing to us and then move on. In essence our choices bring on consequences and we are our own judges and jury by the choices we make.. The universe is designed with a karmic order and justice to it. At least that is what some say. Its interesting reading whether one agrees with the concept or not. Its purported to be the order by which our consciousness can evolve and is designed to progress. Joseph

Paul, I think some people see justice in it . Like in sowing and reaping what you sow. Perhaps not always in this life but the next. It also offers some type of explanation to people on why we are born with predispositions and talents that are sometimes unexplained. Child prodigies etc. It is interesting reading\\ Joseph. PS This explanation referencing Edgar Cayce take on it is quite interesting

PS Read this on an internet site but haven't researched it. Reincarnation in early Christianity http://www.near-deat.../rebirth03.html Also this..... Reincarnation is commonly represented in the West as being an exclusively Hindu or Buddhist belief, but it is not. Reincarnation is a tenet of orthodox Judaism, wherein it is called gilgul or ha’atakah, and was so at the time of Christ, and automatically passed over into Christian theology. -

Karma - the sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences. While this is a common belief held by Buddhism and Hinduism, it seems the word "karma" and Christianity do NOT go well together with many. For other Christians there seems to be some correlation or hints in the Christian Bible of such. Any thoughts on this subject? What do you believe? Joseph

Paul, No worries mate. Not too many certainties in life for anyone but I guess it's real enough... You know what they say here on the farm..... "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck." Joseph

Elen, That's fine. I think if you are seeking Peace and Love above all else, you'll figure out what's best for you. joseph

Paul, Because we are living in the physical world of duality . Duality is subjectivity and requires a subject and object by definition. It also seems to me it demands purpose for action . It is the nature of human consciousness . Action is in my view, always preceded by purpose. Now the creator is both creator and created or One and beyond all limitation and concepts. While God/Reality/the One can be known subjectively by us , to describe such an experience is beyond word and human understanding through labels. Why because subject and object disappear along with locallity and time and in that state? , all questions disappear there are no thoughts, only 'knowing' and everything appears as complete with nothing further needed. Sounds like on drugs i guess huh? If you think this might be an illusion, enjoy the illusion. joseph

Elen, Whose function is it to see that the perpetrator needs to provide restitution or change? Yours? His/Her? society? or our creator? People are what they are. Remember this prayer? "Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." Elen, I don't know what to say. To me nothing is required for my forgiveness. If what you are doing works for you and gives you peace and love then great. I am happy for you. If it doesn't perhaps you can learn from your experiences or try a different approach that seems to work for others. I found forgiveness the key to my journey. Joseph

Paul, Yes , i have the 10 disk set of the Matrix containing the trilogy and all the extras. Loved it. I think it makes many good points and raises questions. All i can speak of is by definition subjective and that certainly doesn't make it true. But that is all i have to speak of and one is free to believe or reject or just file away for a later date. That which is the source for all was not created and is beyond the duality of birth and death. It always was , is and shall be. There is no circle because it is beyond form yet innate in all form. It is innate in purpose but needs no purpose. How do i know. Can't say. I just know. Thats because you do really believe your existence has purpose. it drives you to work everyday. It causes you to care for your family. It drives you to discovery and new experiences. Without purpose , why would you do anything or even try? Joseph PS Also loved Avatar. Great Movie watched multiple times. Lots of what seems to me to be true spoken in the movie.

Paul says.... "I think the fact that this discussion is so extended proves that opposites do not exist. If they did, everything would be clear cut, black and white. " Good point Paul.

Elen, There is always a choice. Some are difficult to make and have ramifications as you mentioned. So you do whats in your power to do or stay but from a spiritual standpoint, in my view of things, forgiveness will open up doors a lot faster than anger and the bitterness, guilt and condemnation that unforgiveness brings. At least that is my experience.. Sometimes you just have to leave and trust in that which gives you life. I don't believe God takes sides in conflicts but i do believe doors are opened and become apparent to those who forgive. Like i said for me i only hold people accountable for things i have been somehow placed in power over them for. Such as their behavior on this forum. Where i have neither the authority nor means to hold them accountable i either accept it or move on. That is my experience and it has in the long run worked for me. Joseph

Elen, In response to your above post...... It seems to me,just because one forgives someone doesn't mean it is wise to stick around and be in a relation with them.. Forgiving is not forgetting or continuing to put oneself in harms way. If i am burned by another, i forgive them and let go of the hate and anger but i do not give up the wisdom that i have been given by putting myself back in the same position to be burned again especially in such an extreme case as you mentioned .You asked "at what point do you say to someone: own up, shape up, and make up, that is make amends or restitution?" I don't feel the need to have to tell them how to live. If they can't figure it out for themselves or don't ask me, i would just leave It doesn't matter whether that person apologizes to me or not. It is my forgiveness of them that i am concerned with. If they can't apologize that is their problem to get over. Forgiveness is not blind. It merely lets go of self-judgement and says 'let go and move on'. Besides , if nothing else , how many times do we have to repeat the prayer " forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" before we realize its a spiritual law.and that unforgiveness is merely judging ourselves or as recorded "for what measure ye measure, it shall be measured unto you". I have found both statements true and therefore am persuaded it is wiser to walk in a spirit of forgiveness of others so that in reality i can say,,, there is nothing to forgive but if they want to hear it i will surely comply. I do not decide where right or wrong starts or ends. At least that is not my present function in this world. I find it enough to live my own life as best i am able and not to worry whether others are trying to get away with something. The universe to me has an order even when it seems like chaos. I believe in the verse that says 'as we sow, we shall reap". The particulars as relates to others i leave to that which sets the order. Joseph

Elen, I also may still use terms such as hot and cold and good and evil but i now have a different understanding of them than in the past. I now realize they are arbitrary points of view and not absolute values.(i think this understanding is important to go forward in ones journey) My wife says its warm while i say its cold, Rather than have a fruitless argument about it and whose right or wrong we can both agree that the temperature is say 68 degrees and she feels comfortable while i feel uncomfortable. I can then put on more clothes and let her win. On good and evil, instead i can look at things as wise or not so wise choices. I can say as Paul in the NT is recorded saying... "All things are lawful to me but all things are not expedient. All things are lawful but do i want to put myself under their power" . Some people may be so trapped by their mind that they may not see what using opposites as absolutes is doing to them. Truly understanding opposites as arbitrary value or points of view diffuses judgement , anger and the like and as i said in the other post for me contributes to peace and love.. If one chooses a different view, i understand . In a sense we are frail creatures often bound by thoughts.and we don't even understand where thoughts come from.. Joseph

Why i think an understanding of opposites is important.... In my experience, the human mind places hypothetical standards on human conduct that leads to judgementalism. Understanding the problem with opposites tempers judgementalism which i find devoid of compassion , love or forgiveness. Judgementalism has an attitude that is harsh to say the least. It appeals to egotism by feeling 'right' virttuous or righteous. It operates by condemnation, shame guilt and seeks retribution or punishment. Forgiveness is a diffult step for the mind to take by virtue of its arbitrary positionality which creates these conflicting dualities (opposites such as right and wrong fair and unfair or deserving versius not deserving.) Therefor i think understanding the nature of opposites helps give us compassion for human frailty and tempers judgementalism. This opens us to forgiveness and what seems to me a freedom to love others and ourselves unconditionally. Joseph

Thanks Steve. Fair enough, Joseph

E, a continuous sequence in which adjacent elements are not perceptibly different from each other, although the extremes are quite distinct. ie hot and cold are simply arbitrary points we put on a single line which are degrees of heat from one extreme to another. Heat is real that can be measured in degrees. Cold can be defined but only in terms of heat. PS Cold or Hot doesn't actually exist. Its used for convenience sake. Heat is the continuum with hot and cold alternative viewpoints.