JosephM

Hi Jen, I saw Daniel Kish many years ago when he was much younger using his talent riding a skateboard. Amazing. After seeing his skateboarding skills, i tried echolocation myself around the house which was already familiar territory but i guess i didn't have the patience to continue after a few crashes. It is a most interesting analogy you make between sound waves (echolocation) and imagery and brain waves and visual or vocal imagery. From personal experience i don't doubt the connection and while there is much i do not understand, i have had some amazing experiences myself.. Thanks for sharing your personal story and the links. Joseph

Terry, I tend to agree with Paul that though you don't use the word "everyone", everyone who has a monogamous exclusive relationship is implied because you make the statement that the relationship (monogamous exclusive) is "fear and control based". Though it may be such for some people i do not consider it based on fear and control. In fact, personally, i find it more wisdom based. I have a monogamous exclusive relationship that has worked well for me the last 47 years. My wife can speak for herself. Perhaps it might not work tomorrow but tomorrow has in my view, no real existence in today's reality except as a hypothetical. I have experienced sexual thoughts concerning others you referred in your article as sexual fantasies but i just consider them "thoughts" that pass and not at all who i am in reality. I don't think i have lost an authentic identity by my exclusive relationship. In fact perhaps i have more accurately realized my real identity and recognized the unique thoughts, emotions, and images that have passed through this mind as merely transient and not me. just sayin... Joseph PS i suspect that since you deal primarily with problematic marriages or others doing the same, your views may be conditioned or slanted a particular way. By the same respect, since the majority of those i associate with seem to have relatively solid marriages, i am also conditioned or slanted in my view differently. I am acquainted with police officers who believe "everyone", with few exceptions are liars. That is in this mind understandable.

Welcome Sue, I have not heard of another ministry such as yours among Progressive Christianity. Sounds like a worthy work. You might check out our main site at www.progressivechristianity.org where there are resources that may provide the contacts you are seeking. Joseph

Welcome Steve. Taking a look at your book and site. Joseph

Hi Bob, Good to have you back. Haven't heard from you for about a year. Hope life has been treating you good. Joseph

Fatherman, Perhaps using the word ALL is unfair not only to yourself but others also since you must know you couldn't be speaking for all here. Welcome back Jan. Good to hear from you again and please know you are always welcome to voice your views here even if some find it difficult reading. Joseph

I'll ditto that Soma.

Spiritual Awakening is awakening from the dream of thought. Eckhart Tolle

Hi greg and welcome, You certainly won't find any debate from me. Perhaps we all pass through that arena at some time in our life and there is indeed no real peace in such a practice as you have spoken of. When peace becomes ones main focus in life, fault-finding dissipates. In my experience, the 2 can not live in harmony. Peace, Joseph

"When you lose touch with inner stillness, you lose touch with yourself. When you lose touch with yorself, you lose yourself in the world" " Your innermost sense of self, of who you are, is inseparable from stillness. This is the I AM that is deeper than name or form" Eckhart Tolle (from "Stillness Speaks")

Welcome Ellam, Glad to hear your Dad is reconciled and back in your life for the past 3 years. It takes some time and heart searching to undue past prejudices It's often difficult for people to get past prior teachings especially when the Bible is used to justify them. Again welcome, Joseph

Fatherman, rather than repeat all my past thoughts on the subject perhaps this thread on Free Choice which has much to do with beliefs might be of interest to you. It addresses ..., we have choice all right but just how free is it? and is is mostly unconscious? Even if we think we are making a conscious choice, isn't it limited by our programming? Joseph

Thanks to a reported problem by Terry (apexcone) where photo upload was no longer working because of a recent patch in software, we have updated the forum software to Rev 3.4.8 . Sometimes with software upgrades we get new problems so please notify me if you notice anything changed for the worse. Thanks JosephM

I don't think i have a choice either Paul i just find myself neither believing or disbelieving, just having views..

Also one might consider that when 2 Peter was written, he must have been speaking of the Old Testament only since the NT as it exists didn't come into being for some time after. Secondly it was a letter to some followers of Jesus near and around Asia, Galatia, etc.. and we have no claim by him that he was writing anything more than a letter exhorting those of faith never mind sacred scripture as it is claimed to be today. Joseph

Yes, I like that . I have found it agreeable to me to neither believe nor disbelieve these kinds of matters. Rather i choose to accept , view, and practice things until i have discovered otherwise and then merely modify my view. Yes, acceptance is often confused for apathy by many. That is an unfortunate thing but the confusion i have found is usually by the other who looks more at words than deeds.

I would agree with your first sentence Mike. A lot of fundamentals use that writing you reference. One has only to look at the history of the formation of what we now call the Bible and its many versions and translations . It seems doubtful to me that we can trust a church organization to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It seems to me, Jesus certainly didn't trust the church system of his time. Joseph

I would go so far as to say that some of it isn't even inspired at all by most anybody's reasonable standard. Some of it is just plain beliefs and opinions of the times by the writer. ie: Paul's letter concerning women. Joseph

Nice quote Rom. No problem here with what the Buddha said. Sounds most reasonable to me. And welcome Terry if your still out there. Feel free to jump in.

Paul, Check out this interesting summation of Buddhism when you get a chance. It is considered by most an Atheistic religion and perhaps all Buddhists might not agree but THIS SUMMATION is based on the Pauli Canon which i believe is the oldest record of what the Buddha actually taught.. (don't quote me on that!) I think its worth reading and then a deep study of the original language of what Jesus taught about the kingdom of God/Heaven seems to me to parallel much of it. Still one has to actually wake from the dream to realize this for oneself. So as Paul of the NT is reported writing... " Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light."

The point Paul is... it depends on the perspective state your looking from. Of course the dream is not real from the wake state and of course time did not stand still from the awake state when you were in deep sleep. Of course nobody has starved to death or died because they dreamed it from the perspective of the awake state. Now what if ? .... this awake state is really a longer dream you chose and when you wake up from it in 10 or 20 years or more you realize it was only like a dream and nobody really died or starved. While it is a lucid one and persistent and has all the appearances of reality in that it is highly structured, continuing each day in the form of chapters, you really didn't die... and getting all upset over the drama was just part of an experience you agreed to share in without memory recall in the first place. I put it in the what if structure not to say this is the way it is... because it is not something someone can tell you and then you just believe. Rather i said it to show you one of a number of possibilities that might cause one to look at things in not quite the same way. Can you really know? I would say yes, but it will be found closer to the third state that i mentioned above in the other post which to you might not be real. Are you lost in your dream? Great coffee... enjoy Joseph

Oh well Paul... i guess you missed the real point. Let's just enjoy our cup of coffee here in the cafe.

Agreed Steve. Using the word illusion was only meant to say things are not what they always seem to be. It helps one to not get caught up in all the drama that one has not yet a full understanding of. You bring up a good point with the word impermanence.. If scientifically, everything we see, feel, touch, hear, smell etc is impermanent then it cannot be as it seems except for the moment. Therefor its appearance though real enough, is constantly changing in time and illusory in nature. Energy cannot be seen, only the effects of it so that the manifest is made from those things that cannot be seen. It is the same with our perception of things, we live in a world of effects where we look for causes. Yet i find no causes in the visible, only preconditions. We see Death and starvation and yes we do something within our power to alleviate it but that does not detract from the greater picture that the world is not broken, the universe is unfolding and all these things are in a delicate and intelligent balance. Death and starvation seen from a narrow perspective perhaps can lead to depression, anger, hate, apathy or blame which does little to rectify any situation. Therefor i think an understanding of the illusory nature of things can better prepare us to take action without the negative implications. Just my thoughts, Joseph

fatherman, Just for clarification. He said you are Peter not you are the rock. The rock was the foundation principle that flesh and blood didn't reveal but the Father. Jesus wasn't telling Peter to start the body of Christ but by that rock (foundation) , hearing directly from the Father, the body of Christ (the church) would come together. No organization can replace hearing directly from the father That is the foundation of his assembly.... not an organization. Notice there is no mention elsewhere of starting a physical organization by Jesus. At least that is my view of the writing you refer to Joseph

Paul, Suffer me for a moment. You are asleep on your bed and dreaming. The dreams in what most call the dream state seem real while fully in that state. Now when you awake, you call that the awake state and then say your dreams weren't real even though the people, objects and places you heard, saw, touched, felt and smelled seemed real when you were fully in that dream state, While awake you are convinced they were not what they seemed to be (illusory), perhaps just the brain working making up those things you saw because you now know your eyes were closed and the room was dark where you laid. The next night you yet dream again but then the dream shortly ends and then nothing (deep sleep) for hours measured by another in awake time. Time stops completely in that state yet you still exist by awake standards but where is Paul? Paul is absorbed into nothingness because he is unaware of recollecting time in that state when he returns to the wake state. Of the 3 states, awake, dreaming, or deep sleep where time has ceased... Which of these states are real and which are illusory? In my experience, the last is closer to reality than the first. just sayin.. Joseph