PaulS

It's a good point - too often, in our ignorance, we don't know about the strength of these 'minor' cultures and too often understand the world from the point of view of 'dominant' cultures. Well, at least maybe I do anyway

That's a good point. I was applying the term in a broad-brush approach but you're right - it is so broad that even some Christians don't believe other Christians are Christian! Those stages make a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing. Taking into account Kellerman's post also, maybe it's a case of some cultures benefiting from Christianity, whereas others were better off without it. Perhaps it depends on the actual fit with the community it is being introduced into?

Your post reminds me of the following quote: Eskimo: 'If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?' Priest: 'No, not if you did not know.' Eskimo: 'Then why did you tell me?'

There was a statement made in this thread about Nordic peoples perhaps managing to "somehow managed to absorb the best of the Christian teaching, like creating decent social support structures, minimizing inequality, focusing on what's best for everyone, whilst rejecting the worst". I've never really given it that much thought, but what do people think about Christianity maybe, or not, being responsible for dragging the world forward? Is it Christianity that is responsible for making the world a better, fairer, place, or could/would/might that have happened anyway? Do people think the world was perhaps a dark and loveless place pre-Christianity? Is Christianity responsible for decent social support structures, equality, focusing on the good of the community, etc? Just ruminating.

Hard to say I think. One glaring omission in the empathy stakes I have with Christianity (and I recognize it is not all Christianity, but it is a lot of it), is the lack of empathy these types have toward their fellow human beings and loved ones who they think it is quite okay for them to suffer an eternal, never-ending torment, simply because they didn't believe the 'right' things in this lifetime. That seems to blow empathy out of the water in my view, but then again, I haven't conducted any studies to demonstrate it. But maybe it is possible to hold a high-degree of empathy but to let it be overruled by other dominant emotions, such as whatever emotions their religion provides them with? I think the potential is there both for religion to attract empathetic-leaning people as well as to create empathetic-minded people who are raised in religious communities. But I would be interested to see if similar studies show other types of community also contributing to building empathy. I wonder if it is 'community' in general morseo than religion that encourages and attracts empathetic minds, its just that religion has been the majority community to date, so to speak?

No problem. I do sincerely thankyou for trying anyhow.

Beanieboy, To me it sounds like you would be a lot better for not participating in such a forum. I hope you're in a good place these days and can put these experiences where they belong...in the past. Cheers Paul

Thanks Kellerman. I wasn't asking for any 'proof' - just interested to know how you determined that spirituality goes well beyond just your personal neural responses. I'm not all that unfamiliar with the response that *some* people have this way of knowing while others don't, which is partly why I ask the question - I'm just seeking to clarify how it might not just be more neural responses, individuality seeming to me to be the key rather than 'spirituality' that is only knowable by some for some reason. For me personally, your answer doesn't adequately address that, but that's okay. I'm only asking the question.

Quite possibly, but how do you differentiate between a neural response and an 'other' response - e.g. spirituality? Or how do you recognize that your response to spirituality isn't in fact just a neural response to your perception?

Not sure if you meant to add your own comments or not, Rom, but it certainly does encourage the question - is not spirituality also 'just' another human experience, like awe? Certainly with the wide and diverse understanding of spirituality between individuals, it does seem to be an individual experience, just like awe is.

Not to distract from this thread, but this section (Progressive Christianity) simply tries to ensure general, supportive discussion about progressive Christianity reserved for those who consider themselves in general agreement with the 8 points. The important thing, as I believe anyway and will try to manage accordingly, is that there is an opportunity for PC's needing some supporting discussion, to be able to without being discouraged. Rom, if your comments were inappropriate, then there would be an issue. But as per what I've usually seen from you, these are genuine discussion questions, in line with this particular topic and not ill-intended. Being responsible for this forum is not a precise science, so I hope others understand where I'm coming from. Peace & good will. Paul

I think you're right, John. It's easy to laugh at this stuff, but really it is scary to think that so many Americans are so convinced of these beliefs. I'm sure they are a minority, but a very dangerous minority nonetheless - like the mob that stormed the Capitol carrying christian flags and banners. What if they had succeeded? What if Trump has succeeded in overturning the election? Would the US eventually be experiencing a Theocracy? Is such that far off? And how twisted is the thinking that their version of God put Trump in power (with, to put it mildly, all his character flaws), but somehow God was defeated this time around when Biden was put in power! I think this is the poison that is religion.

Without a doubt there are millions, if not billions, of people who quite rightly would feel that the world is not getting any better, based on their personal perspective and actual experience in particular. But we are getting better, in lots of ways. Life expectancy has increased tremendously across the globe, including in Africa and Asia and the world as a whole average. Child mortality rates have plummeted in the last 100 years - even in India where families lost 50% of their babies only 100 years ago, today experiencing rates of 5%. Global income inequality has been on a steady downward trend for several decades. This is mostly a result of developing countries such as China and India where hundreds of millions of people have seen their living standards improve. In fact, for the first time ever since the Industrial Revolution, about half of the global population can be considered global middle class. Politically, throughout most of human history people lived under oppressive non-democratic regimes. As of today, about half of the human population is living in a democracy. As for conflict, while the early 20th century was especially brutal with two world wars in rapid succession, the postwar period has been very peaceful. For the first time ever, there has been no war or conflict in Western Europe in about three generations, and international organisations including the EU and the UN have led to a more stable world. I think we're getting somewhere, but there's still a long way to go.

Seems to go hand-in-hand with Progressive Christianity, IMO. Thanks for sharing, Irreverance. I never even knew Theopoetics was a 'thing'! Cheers Paul

Thanks for pointing that out, Irreverance. I have now transferred those posts across to the more appropriate thread - Discussing PC Cheers, Paul.

I don't think to date anybody has had to 'wade through it' on this forum, but I certainly am mindful of it. Well, you know what you would like, so that is a fair enough comment/observation about any forum you may wish to participate in. My approach is to allow some leeway and tolerance and see where it goes. Like I said, in all my years here, it's not really been an issue.

I'm not sure if you had a look at the website, but it does seem to be a reasonably genuine attempt at developing soem serious attention to that area. As they say on the website: "There are almost no significant conferences or symposia on this question which could appeal to scientists, academics and others with advanced training. This is partly because such research is not taken seriously by the current scientific paradigm. It is probably time to end this close-minded approach. We at BICS believe that the only way to do so is to appeal to qualified professionals who have the power to create change." So to me they seem to be inviting scientists and others to contribute to such studies. I don't think there's much in it myself, but good luck to them.

I don't agree that progression 'depends' on oppression, but I acknowledge there's lots of it. Indeed, and we are immensely priveleged to be here regarding other people's suffering. I can do some things to help, but I can't do everything. I'm not sure that is accurate. I think oppression is lessening in the world, but there is still too much of it.

I came across this promotion where entrepreneur Robert T. Bigelow and his Bigelow Institute are offering $500,000 for the winning essay that is judged to provide the best evidence of the Afterlife. To me it reads that one doesn't have to 'prove' the afterlife, rather just convince the judging panel that their essay is the best evidence for. http://bigelowinstitute.org/ I'm afraid I don't have much to submit, but was wondering if anybody here wanted to (and/or were brave enough to) share any stories or personal experience they may have for an afterlife. I'm hoping maybe people can just post without being questioned, challenged or doubted, and just let the stories be, for readings sake. Any takers?

I can understand your concerns John, but over the years I have found that with this forum many people come and go. Some stay for short periods, some stay for long ones. Some views may be ludicrously to the right, others ludicrously to the left, and every shade in between. For me personally, I engage where I feel it is beneficial, and I try to leave it be where I feel its not. Personally I tend not to jump on contributors unless they decide to come in swinging with little regard for our guidelines. Sometimes its a balancing act and I often find it hard to bite my tongue concerning some views, but I try to remind myself that we are all on our own journey and maybe that person's participation here may actually be beneficial to them forming other views. I hear what your saying, but if there is another forum out there that does it a lot better, I genuinely would value a better understanding of just how they do that!

Indeed, but then again, it didn't happen, so maybe we can take some faith in that? Definitely!

I think that it may well be only a drop in the bucket, but it's a drop that wasn't there a few thousand year ago, so, progression. I definitely agree that it is a bit of a 1st World view, but the fact that anyone can even have a 1st world view indicates some progression as a species to me. But I'm not just talking in a material way - many people genuinely do want to help and do contribute to their fellow humans climbing out of the cesspool of poverty, hunger, filth etc. But yes, we can't sugarcoat our development - there's a lot of people who get trodden on and conveniently 'ignored'. There is still a long, long way to go.

Welcome aboard John56, we are happy you've joined us here!

Thanks for sharing Kellerman and I agree with John, a very moving and thoughtful post.