PaulS

No, not daft at all John, and I for one enjoyed your little examination of each religion and what they have to offer. I wonder when 'we' did start believing? I expect it was when our distant relatives first started to develop self-consciousness. As you mentioned elsewhere, there is early evidence of our relatives the Neanderthals practicing ritual and ceremony - it's not a big step for me to imagine earlier hominoids asking questions about what they didn't understand (which would have been a heck of a lot I imagine way back then) and developing spiritual answers instead of scientific understandings. I think the biggest influence by far concerning why people follow certain religions is they're family and cultural upbringing. To me that is why the majority of religious people believe in their faith - it's what they grew up with. In the information age we might be seeing that break down a bit, but largely I think people stick with what they know (or what they think they know, is possibly more accurate). I'm pretty confident that had I grown up in a strong Hindu culture I would be just as certain of those religious beliefs as many Christians are who have grown up with their particular religion.

I wonder what people's thoughts are on Trump's efforts to overturn the election results, to have the Senate reject the Electoral College's outcome, and his encouraging of a protest in DC on 6 Jan?

I wonder if religions, like Christianity, start out with good intent but as they become further and further removed from the initiators, they get changed and warped by well-meaning, but ultimately mistaken, individuals and groups. I certainly think Christianity morphed from what Jesus actually meant to later early Christians making excuses for Jesus not returning when they expected. 'Theology' started getting developed around Jesus by people who didn't know him and were several generations removed from the Jesus experience. I think most religions have something to offer, otherwise they wouldn't exist I guess. Having been burnt by aligning myself with traditional Christianity early in life, I am loathe to ever commit again to any particular religion, but welcome any teachings or philosophies that add value to our lives and helps us live better with one another.

Let's hope we can work on that in 2021, John! I know there are lots of great people who have previously been involved here and that new people come through all the time, so I expect we will see peaks and troughs. Numbers wise 2020 was a bit of a trough, but I can see that changing this year. 4BeanMix, I am not and have any never been a member of Christian Forums, so I can't rally speak from experience with them. Here we have very rarely banned anybody from this site and have only on the rarest occasions suspended anybody for a short period (1 or 2 weeks). This has always been pre-empted with plenty of warnings. It is a balancing act, but we try to be open to people of all degrees of belief - from stringent fundamentalists to militant atheists, and everywhere in between. I'd be pretty confident that here our TCPC offers a lot more tolerances than other Christian message boards. We have guidelines that we ask participants to adhere to, but if ultimately they can't respect those, it will result in limiting their access here. It is a shame that certain sub-forums can act as a safe haven for those of a similar mindset, to reinforce harmful views. Let's hope that participation in forums such as this one can help solve those problems!

Hi all, just an update. I am now funding this forum by myself at a cost of $540 USD/year ($45/mnth). I really don't want to see the forum go by the wayside and am investigating ways to make it more financially viable past 2021. In the meantime, if you find any value in maintaining this forum, please consider contributing a month's worth of fees or in fact anything you consider reasonable to help share the load. Please know that your use of the forum archives or participation here do not, and never will, require you to make any donation. It is only if you feel the urge to help out that I ask you to consider donating by Paypal to 1paulsmedley@gmail.com A lot of members and non-members (guests) alike benefit and gain inspiration in their progressive journey from searching/reading from our forum database of over 52,000 posts. Readers average between 7-10 guests present during any 15-minute interval. You can help keep this resource on-line to the benefit of those who by your contribution are able to benefit from its content. Thanks everyone. Cheers Paul

Here's wishing all members and visitors to the Progressive Christianity Forum here, a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New year! It would be an understatement to say that 2020 has been a tumultuous year, no matter which country you live in, and we look forward to things improving on the Covid-19 front in 2021. Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, Satisfying Saturnalia - whatever your reason for the season, best wishes and may you experience health and well-being throughout 2021. Cheers Paul

Hi there Faith, Welcome to the forum. I hope you like participating here and I hope you might even get some answers to what you are seeking. When I read your question I looked into paganism and its connections to Christianity and found that there is a thing called Christopaganism, where adherents combine the elements of both Christianity and Paganism. So it would seem that indeed there are those who believe it is possible to be both Christian and Pagan. I can't say I have ever had any feelings for becoming a witch, Christian or otherwise, and I don't label myself as a Christian-Pagan, but I think I can understand how both Paganism and Christianity can speak to somebody. In my opinion, whatever works for you and contributes to peace and harmony in our community, is alright with me. If what you believe in does no harm to community, and better yet, if it contributes positively, then all power to you I say. Of course there will be a lot of Christians who disagree. One) a lot probably won't like somebody who is a different type of Christian to what they understand Christianity to be, hijacking 'their' name so to speak. And two) I am sure plenty will cite verses from the bible (primarily OT) that condemn witches and sorcery, most likely not knowing precisely what the authors meant when they called out such acts or behaviors, but nonetheless deciding what they 'know' God's will to be. So I'm afraid I don't really have much of an answer for you other than to say Progressive Christianity seeks to create community that is inclusive of ALL people, so to me that sounds like Christianity is big enough to accept paganism as well. Cheers Paul

Understanding evolution has a lot of implications for theology and Christianity I believe. Perhaps that's why many try to deny the science. Each to their own, I guess.

You're all good, John. No dramas.

So true, John. I think it also 'hardens hearts' to a certain degree. Christians who believe their loved ones, family, and friends who are not 'saved' so either deserve or simply will suffer eternal misery, whilst they experience eternal joy and bliss in Heaven, must have to harden their hearts to some extent to shield themselves from feelings for those they are separated from. I just cannot fathom how my mother could ever be happy in Heaven knowing that myself and her grandchildren are suffering eternal torture and pain. I can only imagine that these people need to start hardening their hearts in some way to protect themselves from what would otherwise have to be cognitive dissonance in this life.

I thought Neanderthals were also humans, albeit a different species or even subspecies, but I get what you mean. Perhaps once we developed self-consciousness, these questions began to appear.

For me personally, I find it hard to imagine a God separate to humanity 'out there' somewhere, but still loving us as if we were his physical children. For me personally, such a God would have way too many questions to answer, e.g if you do really love us, why do you let little children suffer paedophile rape and torture? Are you powerless to intervene or do you think that sort of cruelty is beneficial? Why do little children get cancer and die painfully? Why don't you 'play your hand' so to speak and make it beyond all doubt that you are an existent creator? Etc etc. These were questions I probably asked over and over when I found myself leaving traditional Christianity. Today, for me, they are easily answered by understanding that such a God simply doesn't exist. To me, the cosmos, the universe, is a completely neutral party in our creation and ongoing existence. I do question what was before the big bang, so there is a gap there that maybe a God-thought can fill, but I am yet to find that point. As far as David is concerned, I wonder if he would have said the same things if he was living in India around this time and was a practicing Hindu. Or perhaps if he had lived in Buddhist Asia around then he may have viewed existence differently. My point being, I think David was a product of the time and culture that he lived in. His views would be expectedly shaped by the religious belief of his community. So really, it is no surprise that he is purported to believe the things he does. He also didn't know anything about evolution, so he couldn't be expected to critical analyze what we know today and judge it or consider it against his religious beliefs. Finally, this belief that we are created in God's image, that somehow we resemble God, either physically or spiritually (or some combination of both) seems a very egotistic idea myself. We humans perhaps tend to think of ourselves as the center of the universe, as the superior species on our planet, but ultimately I think that we are just another animal, albeit one with a more developed consciousness perhaps. As Bishop Spong said - "If horses had Gods they would look like horses". So for me it is not surprising that our culture has developed a God or Gods that remarkably have a lot in common with ourselves. Hope that helps you in some way. I know it's not how every Christian views God, but that's where I sit. Happy to discuss further if you like.

Welcome Phyllis, I hope you enjoy the forum and perhaps it may even be helpful and contribute to your seminary studies. I see you have already asked a question concerning creation and evolution, so I look forward to participating in that discussion next. Once again, welcome. Cheers Paul

John, I'm still learning what functions we can and can't perform on the forum (I'm no IT guru and the forum platform is an off-the-shelf hosted one), but I think that if you choose to 'follow' a thread you will receive an email when a comment is made there? The 'Follow' button is roughly in the top right hand corner of the thread. I think also you may get an email notification if you are 'quoted' in a thread, but not a notification just because somebody has posted within said thread (unless you ar efollowing the thread as per above). You can also see what might be new on the forum overall without logging in, but you do need to visit the site. Without logging in you can select 'All Activity' in the top right hand corner of the home page and that will list all posts made recently. As you are not logged in at this point it will list all activity on the forum in a sequential order but will include posts you may have already read. I hope that helps a little, and I will try to look into notifications more also. I think its helpful remembering that even Judaism and Christianity come from pagan/animism roots, as humans began to question their existence and the goings on in the world. It should help remind us all that there is no single answer to God in the world, at least that's how I see it anyway. Cheers Paul

Hi John, Welcome to the forum. We’re a mish mash from around the globe here - I’m in Australia myself. We’re also a mish mash of different beliefs, ranging from the odd evangelical through to atheists, and many different degrees in between. I hope you enjoy participating here and find our little forum useful in your journey. Cheers Paul

That's an excellent tool, Bo! Thanks for sharing.

Speaking of golf, I seem to be on the improve. Yesterday I hit 58 on each of the front and back nine, where normally I’d be in the 70’s!

Without a doubt, many (i.e. a lot of) media outlets are more and more putting their slant on reporting. More and more they are catering to their audiences. That's what business first is driving these organisations too. Typically I read from Fox News and CNN and then figure the truth is probably somewhere around the middle. Often facts about actual occurrences are not in doubt, but anytime I read a media outlet 'interpreting' what some of these facts mean, I am dubious. I didn't mean to imply that Biden is having a calming effect, just rather that when you question why ‘Democrats’ are worried about a recount or challenges, I was merely just pointing out that that doesn't appear to be the case with what I would call the Number 1 Democrat in the US. If that film clip is the worst of Joe Biden, I think the US is in for a much better 4 years!

I don't see the 'Democrats' being worried about recounts or challenges (I think there's a difference between what the media portrays and what is actual) - if anything Biden actually seems to be the Presidential epitome of calm and restraint where he is saying nothing other than "stay calm, we won, let that sink in for Trump, and eventually all will be well", and come Jan 20 Biden will be President. What I think any fuss may be about is that many don't like to see Trump not acknowledging Biden's success, not being prepared at this stage to embrace the transition which is so obviously going to happen, and perhaps they don't like what Trump is doing in misrepresenting the election as 'rigged'. It does seem a baseless claim that denigrates the integrity of your democratic process. I can't see how Trump thinks any of his carry on is beneficial to the country. I don't think it's a case of there being no fraud whatsoever (I'm sure there are instances of some fraud and integrity issues in all elections), the real issue is rather whether any fraud was large enough to influence the outcome of the election, even in those tighter states. Trump has said outright that the election was rigged, whereas numerous authorities responsible for overseeing and enforcing election protocols (Republican, Democrat and non-partisan) are all saying the opposite. It does just seem to be another petulant rant by your outgoing President who doesn't want the facts to get in the way of his story, but if your country has to go through the motions to show everybody just how legitimate the ousting of Trump is, then hopefully that will be a benefit for your country. Perhaps it may even heal some of the division. I think the scary thing these days is no matter what actual facts are produced and substantiated, there are just so many people that will refuse to accept them. So many seem convinced these days that actual facts are fake news, and vice versa. Actual 'news' over there seems to have gone out the window and people just watch and read entities that support their already held opinions.

I wonder what members think about the election result. Did Biden genuinely win or was the election rigged as Trump has claimed?

Indeed Joe!

Personally, I don't believe a supernatural place called Hell exists whatsoever. Certainly, the kind of Hell somewhat portrayed in the New Testament (a place of eternal suffering and punishment) has nothing in common with the previous +500 years of teaching in Judaism, which although English versions of the bible use the word 'hell', it is actually referring to their belief in Sheol, a place where all the dead go (except for maybe a few exceptions such as Moses and Elijah). A burning, punishing hell is a Greek development that was adopted by Christianity. Bart Erhmann, who is an expert on early Christianity, explains it much better than I do, here: https://www.npr.org/2020/03/31/824479587/heaven-and-hell-are-not-what-jesus-preached-religion-scholar-says

Well it's a good result for me in the election. My betting agency has already paid out for Biden AND during the counting they blew the odds out for Biden to $3.50 at one point, so I dropped another $45 on him. So thanks Trump, Biden and the American people - I have a tidy $200 profit to my name now!

If anyone is still confident that Trump is going to win, it might be worth backing it up financially at this point:

Looks like the 2-minute meditation could come in handy, Bo! So much for a clear and simple outcome!