PaulS

The lack of evidence is for the argument that Jesus encouraged inviting gentiles to the Kingdom. That just isn't there.

Okay, so now that you acknowledge outliers (your actual understanding of statistics yet to be revealed) I guess you're no longer saying that covid only endangers octogenarians in long term care. CV kills less than flu and pneumonia? What, are you talking over the history of man? Tell me - how many people have died from flu and pneumonia in the US in the last 6 months? I don't think you are keeping a very good track of statistics, just quietly. Covid has nearly disappeared in the US? If that is the case, you are very lucky Burl (to live in the world you live in) unlike the cursed state of Victoria and that camp in Zealand! Camps! Really, where do you get this stuff?

Night mate. (Translated - goodnight, my friend).

I prefer the evidence provided by science over any 'belief'. The science (the longest running covid19 study to be conducted in the world) says covid antibodies (as any antibodies typically required for immunity, according to science) whither within 3-months so that less than 17% of people previously infected can prevent reinfection. You seem to 'believe' these scientists are mistaken and that most people will somehow resist reinfection, even though they don't have enough antibodies (which according to the science of immunology would be normally required) and you base this on which scientific study again? Now that's true 'belief'.

That's good. That's what a democracy is about. Good luck to you.

I think the virus got the jump early on Italy & Spain, and Australia would have been the same if it was as densely populated and slow to react. I'm not being unfair - I think all of the world didn't know what was coming when it got its first cases. What is telling is that once they did get their act into gear, the death rates of these countries fell astronomically. So too did their infection rates. Italy learnt its lessons and implemented appropriate practices and measures, and you know how many people are dying there each day now? Single digits.

It's not about credit or brownie points - I thought we were talking about the science of covid19 herd immunity and also the effectiveness of good hygiene practices, social distancing, and the wearing of masks. You know, pretty much all of the things your President has showed by example that he doesn't value. It's not about my glorious, sunburnt country of open plains and beaches trumping (no pun intended) the horror of a covid-ridden US at war with itself.

I'm not arguing that our population density is much less, I'm saying that where we did have spread, that spread was stopped in its tracks by social distancing and hygiene measures. I have no doubt it is easier to do in our country compared to yours, but that doesn't detract from it being an appropriate way to manage it. Are you now arguing that because your population is more dense, social distancing and good hygiene aren't the best way to deal with the disease?

I'm glad you're happy with your situation.

To the contrary, Australia has had social distancing issues which have resulted in resurgences. The most recent was in Victoria where poor quarantine procedures (i.e. the supervisory personnel let the quarantines out of quarantine for extended periods into the community). Australia too had people shouting at close distances and young people partying etc. What was evidenced though was that when that stuff was shut down, the spread stopped. If you are now saying that the issue is that it is too hard for Americans to practice these measures to stop the spread, well, we're going down a different discussion path now.

Pretty much the science has already established that if you don't have antibodies to a said virus then you can be infected/reinfected with the said virus. That's normally how it works. I don't think it is guesswork that has established such scientific principles on immunity. I'm not sure anybody is going to start a study where we deliberately reinfect people with covid19 to prove that their lack of covid19 antibodies will still protect them?

If you're saying that it is just a 'might' then I can't disagree with you. For some, the couple of months worth of antibody resistance may have had some affect on infection spread. I think on the balance of probabilities though, as evidenced in Australia, social distancing/hygiene controls/lack of group meetings & audiences has definitely seen the spread stop in its tracks. Perhaps that approach may not work in the US because of people's focus on individual rights. Largely Australians didn't have that concern when it came to stopping the virus.

On one hand we have the longest running scientific study into covid19, saying that after 3 months less than 17% of an infected cohort still retained antibodies. On the other hand we have zero scientific evidence of herd immunity actual working to minimize the spread of covid19. I know where I'm putting my money.

We can see there are gentile influences to some of Matthew and I'm sure there was editing done throughout the ages also. That largely Matthew says nothing about Jesus encouraging non-gentiles into the Kingdom says more than these couple of verses, in my opinion. It just would not be hard, if it were true, for Jesus to utter one sentence such as "the Kingdom is for Jew and Gentile alike", if that is what he actually believed.

Well I would have thought you would be able to show me seeing as you are convinced (presumably based on evidence) that herd immunity works for covid19.

That's one bet that I wouldn't want to be staking lives and an economy on.

It will be devastating, as it will be for the Australian economy. Will your country be destroyed - no. What will be more devastating is if you have Trump continuing his mixed messages about opening or not-opening and the continuation of this pandemic that will never see you able to get back to normal because people are continually sick, contagious, and overwhelm your public health system.

The word 'suggest' in a yet-to-be-peer-reviewed-study is like using the word theory when discussing evolution. They are saying the evidence is showing you that very few people (less than 17% of the cohort) have antibodies at the 3-month mark. That is beyond dispute in the study. 'Why' or 'how' that occurs is the only 'suggestion' - the science that they drop off is proven in the study.

I agree that we pretty much can't know for sure about any of it because of the untrustworthy nature of much of scripture, added to and edited throughout the ages. Puff piece where the authros believe Jesus said stuff because it is quoted in Acts. No scholarship has really gone into this piece. Directed at the Jews. There were Jews who were going to cop it and there were Jews who were considered lesser who God would restore. Only Jews though.

There is. The Kings Study from London. Read it. I have faith that eventually a vaccine will likely be found. But the quickest time-frame ever that the world has seen a vaccine developed for a disease, is the one for mumps - and that took 4 years. So whilst I have hope that technological advancements will speed up the process today, I think it is prudent to treat the virus as though no vaccine will be found. At least until we can get a handle on it and manage it better. 0.05% of your population dead in a matter of months, is not my idea of excellent management if you ask me.

Undoubtedly there is much harm being caused economically by this virus. My comment did not mean to sound flippant but was in the context of Burl's comment that your whole country was being destroyed. I'm sure for those small business people it will feel like their world is being destroyed, but the fact remains that your country itself will get through this and is not being destroyed.

I agree driving is a privilege, but if you want the privilege of driving within the community there are rules you will adhere to that are in place to protect that community from you being an idiot. if you don't want to adhere to those rules because you feel your rights should be paramount, you will quickly lose that privilege. Similarly, you have the privilege to live in a healthy and relatively safe society. If you want to jeopardize that community and put them at risk because you feel your rights are more important, then that community should feel free to revoke your privilege in order to protect themselves. I don't see it as people wanting to take the risk be in their presence, but rather people wanting to be able to move freely about society with less risk of covid and they don't want privileged fools, who think their rights should triumph over public safety, making their community less safe for the rest of them. You seem good with people's rights to protest being shutdown by police because some of the crowd misbehave, but you seem to support the rights of others to endanger their community because they feel their personal rights are more important than respecting the desire for a safer community. It's odd to me.

Which Erhman quote was this Thormas? I don't know what 6 you are referring to, and they may well speculate that Jesus would't be against such, but that evidence simply doesn't exist, so it is just their speculation. I'm not trying to settle the matter for you, and it is already settled for me, lacking any opposing evidence yet to be produced to convince me otherwise. Again, you only have Paul's version of the meeting. Nobody else has a say recorded anywhere. Only Paul tells you it's only about conversion. No, there likely was. But two wrongs don't make a right - meaning that just because Paul took up other's opinions about outreach doesn't mean it was in line with Jesus. No, not my reading, it's the book of Isaiah. Replete with threats against foreigners, continually saying how the powers that be will be destroyed and overthrown, yet you take a couple of verses and say that Isaiah represents an invitation to gentiles into the kingdom as an ages-old Jewish expectation. It is not. Doesn't seem in line with Jewish expectations to me. The eventual result after God has conquered all his enemies, would be an Israel restored. Israel had the power. The end result of other nations peoples who had survived then becoming subject to the God of Israel and then living peacefully with all was the final outcome, driven by the war like God conquering these other peoples. God's intention can't be to include all if he considers some his enemies - they had to be destroyed first. And I don't read any scholars that say the opposite is definitely true. Most, from what I read, don't really go into the matter of comparing, but rather seem to already have an opinion that the Kingdom was for all and then acknowledge (as they can't do otherwise based on what we have) that Jesus' focus was on the Jews only.

I thought it was clear we were discussing her immunity for the covid virus. That herd immunity as a scientific principle exists, is a given. It just can't be proved for covid says the science. It's not my science Joe - there simply is NO scientific evidence that herd immunity works as a suitable strategy to tackle covid 19.

Not sure where you get your data from Burl but it is clearly an erroneous source if you think that covid only endangers octogenarians in long term care. Yes, they are the highest at-risk group by far, but people in all age brackets, from babies to aged care (and without underlying health issues) have died from the virus. Your society is not getting destroyed. Suck it up for a few months and you will largely be okay.