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To me, Progressive Christianity means applying the “new story” of science and anthropology to the myths and beliefs of traditional Christianity and thus opening the door to probe for a deeper meaning. It means looking beyond bible inerrancy and dualistic thinking to a more meaningful relationship with God who is always present and active in, with, and through all. Progressive Christianity, to me, means letting go of ideas of exclusivity, accepting that my faith is not the one and only truth. And, by learning of other faiths, enriching my own faith. Finally, it means being allowed to explore ideas that mainstream churches would find uncomfortable, if not blasphemous, and find both tolerance and agreement.

Merry Christmas from north of the 49th Parallel.

Hello everyone. I'm new here so i thought it'd be nice for me to introduce myself. My name is Liliana, but most people just call me Lily for short. I'm 22 years old, and i attend my local united church every Sunday. I had a hard time with my faith for a long time, as for many years i was a lost soul that had some very bad habits... this was due to my girlfriend at the time dying in a very sad way. I completely lost all faith in God after that. I was sad. I was angry, i was so angry at God and i didn't understand why he took her from me. I turned my back on God for a very long time and i wanted nothing to do with him. Then one night she came to me in a dream and explained to me that it wasn't God's fault, that human's have free will, and she was simply young and depressed and stupid. I started slowly re-introducing myself to God and the Bible and i started attending church again. So now I'm a born again Christian & I've done my best to put my life of sin behind me.

Hello, I've been a Christian my whole life. I was raised in a fairly conservative Evangelical community (LCMS). I started examining what I had been taught when I was about 30. (I'm currently 49). My process of deconstruction has been quite slow and I stayed in conservative Evangelical churches during most of those years. Starting about 8 years ago, many more layers came off and I gradually found myself unable to stay in those communities any longer, there was too much internal conflict. I didn't feel it was fair of me to attend a faith community that was very upfront about what they believed and taught and then criticize what they believe and teach. My husband has also been deconstructing although he started later than I did and hasn't peeled back as many layers as I have. We currently attend a mildly progressive evangelical church. It's a great fit for my husband and kids, not so much for me. But it's a compromise I can live with, for now. We live in a very conservative area, progressive is a highly inflammatory word around here. With almost all of my local friends and acquaintances, I cannot have conversations about topics that are important to me. I jokingly say I'm a heretic; of course I don't actually believe I am, as heresy is simply the ideas that didn't win in an argument a long time ago. I'm looking forward to community and conversations here.

Hello to everyone, nice to be here and hope to grow in Christ through a better understanding of the gospel!

I didn't mean to start a totally new topic on The Technician's welcoming post-thread. I got the capital 'T's mixed up and thought I was writing to The Technician instead of Thormas, and that The Technician was opening up his welcoming post-thread to this/these ideas. Sorry about that.

Good question. Probably because we don’t have much else in common.

To me, PC means a wide range of things to a wide range of people. Lately I've been thinking of myself as a pre-Constantinian Christian, (as well as a pre-canonization Christian). Just trying to get, or "tune into" the Spirits of JC, God/Higher Power/Great Spirit etc. , and what's called the Holy Spirit. Even according to the New Testament, that's what the first generations of Christians were doing. . . They didn't have a/the book.

PC is to me a path to faith where I get to hold on to the all inclusive values taught by my hippie parents while exploring God's love through humanity. Ours is not to judge or condemn. Ours is to explore and love. Many "legacy" systems of Christianity appose the message much of the Bible is trying to convey. PC is a way to merge faith with modern science, sociology and life experience. I think it is not what you believe, who to or where you pray, just that you have faith and a moral compass. I want to do good things and be a better person, so I take those lessons and apply them to my life in a modern interpretation. I'd say maybe I've got it all wrong, but that defies the whole PC thing, doesn't it?

Non-Progressive Christian are not allowed post in the Progressive Christianity thread. Which is fair enough. Anyway this led me to clarify for myself, if no one else, Why I am not a Progressive Christian. Progressive Christians: Point 1: Believe that following the path and teachings of Jesus can lead to an awareness and experience of the Sacred and the Oneness and Unity of all life; Not sure I believe in the Sacred. The uppercase Oneness and Unity fill me with a little trepidation, I suspect it could be pointing to something that is not really there. I can see a unity and a oneness in existence but ... Point 2: Affirm that the teachings of Jesus provide but one of many ways to experience the Sacredness and Oneness of life, and that we can draw from diverse sources of wisdom in our spiritual journey; Sacredness and Oneness of life, again the upper case. Sure the teachings attributed to Jesus might lead to the understanding the S and O of life. But I would argue it is not that we can draw from diverse sources ... we have to. Point 3: Seek community that is inclusive of ALL people, ... I have no problem with this, but the wording is strange (I thought). While the word all is in upper case atheists are not mentioned but agnostics are. Also the incentive to write this post to some degree is caused by a lack of "complete" inclusiveness. OK I understand the wish to protect parts of the community; but ... Point 4: Know that the way we behave towards one another is the fullest expression of what we believe; In a way I agree with this statement. It is a bit more complex than that. My behaviour alone is not the "fullest" expression of what I believe. Point 5: Find grace in the search for understanding and believe there is more value in questioning than in absolutes; Again not sure what is meant by grace ... but using my definition (an ease) I would agree. But I have admit I find value in reconciling the results of our searches with the scientific method. Point 6: Strive for peace and justice among all people; I have no problem with this, but it is a bit of a motherhood statement,. Point 7: Strive to protect and restore the integrity of our Earth; This brought me head to head with the free will debate. Can the Earth be any other way than it is? Now I might want it be different/cleaner/whatever but then, the universe unfolding will determine whether or not I will do anything about it Point 8: Commit to a path of life-long learning, compassion, and selfless love. Well I have had a life-long path of learning. All of us do that to some degree or another. When the universe unfolds I may or may not find compassion Selfless love? "Love your neighbour as you love yourself"? Overall this 2011 version (for me) is harder to argue against than the original eight points highlighted in the front page of the forum. Perhaps it is time to update the points to the new Eight Points? Overall I cannot call myself a Progressive Christian, though (I think) I see fairly closely eye to eye with Paul when it comes to the profane and Joseph when it comes to oneness and unity (note the lower case ) Would others like to comment on where they agree or see differences in their take on the 2011 Eight Points.

Greetings! My name is Miriam, and I have only recently come to reclaim the Christian label in my spiritual life. Coming from a more fundamentalist background, I have had to take time to reflect on my experiences of Christianity from a safe distance before re-engaging with organized religion. The writings of such authors as Rob Bell and John Shelby Spong have been a valuable support in that process. I am grateful to have recently found a local church group that accepts and supports me as an eclectic, progressive Christian, and I now hope to build on that experience by connecting to wider discussions of faith online. I am also in the process of developing a blog that focuses on engaging with faith through questions, so I hope that learning from fellow members will help to better inform my writing in the future. I look forward to taking part!

Good evening, I am a Borg- and Spong-inspired justice-focused Christian. I was raised as a United Methodist and felt my faith gain traction and teeth upon discovering Marcus Borg, and also my aunt who is a leftist-Christian clergy! My hope for joining this space is to connect with other like minded people- especially if they are young-ish professionals who are now at home raising kids in a small community which is quite moderate-to-right leaning (although not fundamentalist!) now that's a tall order!

In the NT, it seems like the standard communication method is "feeling something in ones spirit", visions and dreams, though. Like f.e. Peter on the roof having the animal vision, or Paul seeing a vision of a Macedonian man asking him to come over etc. The quotes make my posts look much longer than they actually are I am dealing with a similar conflict myself. The God I know through experience and intuitions etc. seems to be much more of a peaceful, understanding and a nice guy than the God of the Bible, especially the OT one. On the other hand, especially teachings of Paul and some teachings of Jesus heavily resonate with me. So, I am caught in-between of Christianity and something else that I can't quite define. I have tried other religions, it doesn't work, too much of the Bible is indeed my religion and I lose that if I try any other approach. Right now I feel like I'm too Christian to be anything else, but not Christian enough to be a proper Christian either.

I know the feeling Lani and I felt very much the same when I was going through my period of anxiety and depression (which coincided with my kids being about 2 & 4). My wife was also experiencing post natal depression and we didn't recognize it for that until she sought help. I know there can be a stigma associated with depression/anxiety but I would encourage you to consider talking to a professional if that might be a possibility. There's nothing wrong with that and both my wife and I found such a process exceptionally beneficial. I am not saying that is your predicament, but it could possibly be feeding into your anxiety about your children. I don't know where I read it and I have since had trouble locating it, but I remember reading a a story around that time that I found particularly comforting. It went along the lines of this: A distraught mother had her three young toddlers in a bath, preparing to drown them. She was distraught with the thought that if she didn't raise them properly that they might not 'choose Jesus' and would go to Hell. She thought it better to kill them now as innocents so that they would see heaven, than take the chance of raising them and they possibly end up in Hell. In distress at the thought of killing her kids the woman cried out to Jesus saying "please don't let me do this - take my life instead and spare my children - grant them life with you". To this Jesus replied "Woman, if I loved you so much that I was prepared to die for you, do you really think I could allow you or your children to be separated from me". Now I could have the story wrong (wherever it was written) but that's how I remember it. For me personally, it just made me think that if there is anything 'existential' or 'spiritual' to our existence, whatever it is can only be a good thing in the end rather than a harmful thing. If my kids (or I) get it wrong in our tiny blip of an existence on an eternal timeline, then I'm certain that whatever 'higher power' might possibly exist, it would understand. This in turn has allowed me to better accept the day to day. I ponder spirituality and religion, as I do life in general, however i feel no compulsion to 'get it right' or for my kids to. In the end, they will simply work out for themselves what works for them. Sure, guidance is important in life, and opening up our children's minds to the possibilities of all things (not just the spiritual) is a burden that all parents practice to different degrees, but I rest easy knowing that what works for them, will be what works for them. I hope I make some sort of sense. Cheers Paul

For me, Progressive Christianity provides me a paradigm for something I've been seeking all my life...a context, a framework, for constructing a personal religous/faith beliefs system within which I can work to bring that which is above down into that which is below, to make the outer consistent with the inner, to faciliate the doing of God's will on Earth as it is in Heaven. A most frustrating and painful irony for me has been that the very most basic underlying cause of me having rejected so much of the Christian religious traditions of the circumstances of my time and place of birth and life has been and still is the core values instilled within me by that very same religious tradition! As surely as Christ was my cornerstone for the foundation of my system of values and beliefs, so has that been the foundation upon which my objections to and rejections of so much within Christian religious traditions, dogmas, beliefs, and practices as I encounter them in real life, and interpersonal relationships. This has been especially so in my attempt to align my social positions in my outer reality with my inner core values, rooted in my faith, that inform them. Jenell

Just finished reading the book "Damned to Fame", by James Knowlson, a biography of Samuel Beckett. My review of the book is now "live" on Amazon (if "live" is the right word......😀) and here it is:- I really enjoyed reading this biography of Samuel Beckett. Quite long but for me not a word was wasted. Before reading this I knew only of "Waiting for Godot" and "Krapp's Last Tape" and very little of Samuel Beckett's life story. This biography attains a fine balance between life story narrative and insight into the works of Beckett. Today, on a Kindle Fire, it is easy to switch from the text of the book to all the presentations of the plays on YouTube, and also to see the many great paintings that influenced Beckett. Quite an education! And I thank Mr Knowlson for sharing his deep knowledge of Becketts work that flows easily from the text. Samuel Beckett comes across as a fine human being, deeply compassionate in the very best way i.e. without any awareness of it or intent to be so. Just simply "there" for so many friends and even casual acquaintances met with as his life unfolded. The counterpoint for me is in the "eastern" ways of "emptiness", of "no-self", of the "void", of the creative nihilism that such ways promise to open in contrast to the despairing nihilism of our current "western" world. Given the information of this book, Beckett had no acquaintance with such ways and terms, yet his despair/nihilism was indeed creative and life-giving, with the potential to become so for anyone who absorbs the heart of his many plays of mime and voice, music and movement. Anyway, whatever, a superb book and one can only feel gratitude toward the learning of James Knowlson - and the life and works of Samuel Beckett. Thank you. (End of review) I love finding a book that becomes for me a "page turner" or one that "cannot be put down". Many are described as such on their blurbs, but reality often kicks in and two pages become enough before the book is put down - or turned off if on Kindle. But, whatever, as I said in the review, "educational". It has opened up so much, reviving interest in art and music. So much to feed such interest these days, when the whole artistic catalogue of say Rembrandt or Rafael can be had literally for the price of a coffee in McDonald's. Delphi's art series provides this, with indepth commentaries and extras such as pictures of the artists birthplace and even biographies. But. Beckett. I would love to have met him and sat in silence with him.

I'm too new here to label myself as a progressive christian but to me grace means accepting God's love and forgiveness. It means being free from constant self guilt, blame, or judgement and living free and with God's love and eye always on you.

Using your 13 year old girl being given to marriage ... I suspect what changed was life slowly got less harsh and the age of being 'given' was raised as a result. I don't think people change their wants, at least not in the proactive sense.

Search internet for “Progressive Christianity’s Children’s Books” - there’s a website with a nice list. Before purchasing books (I buy them on eBay at discounted prices), search for each title, author and add “YouTube” in the search bar. Many of them are read-aloud pre-recorded books. You can review them that way and if funds are short, watch the videos with your children.

Back in 2008 ... I was in the Andes, Peru. My colleague stopped at a cutting, where there were fossilized dyno footprints wandering across some muddy ancient shore. The footprints were 120 My old. It got me wondering what footprints will I leave. Two thoughts crossed my mind. I am leaving footprints all the time, some obvious and some not so obvious. Most probably won't be seen after millions of years. Wanting to have visible footprints is a vanity (which is OK if we are into that kind of thing).

Hi John, I saw your first posts here some time ago. I did think of responding with a quick word, but my coffee got cold in McDonalds and I was on my way.....😀 I'm taking a rest from my usual Forum so popped back here and saw your latest posting. I must admit to not reading much of you entire "Logos of Sophia" but the verse above which I have quoted caught my mind/heart. It fell into my current preoccupations and thinking (in between cracking further levels of Candy Crush Soda Saga) which revolves around relating Jung's so called "Individuation" process with the Buddhist "anatta" teaching (not self) Apparently, superficially, at loggerheads, yet as usual my own mind seeks for wholeness, unity, correspondences. I think that there must always be "mystery" beyond (and within) our being (or non-being) Without mystery, without the "something beyond, yet still to be" then it is easy to congeal into a finished product, a self-satisfied and "justified" self. New Age jargon speaks of living in the Now, and many seem to propose this. "Live in the Now, man!" goes the mantra. But if we get away from linear time frames into a multi-dimensional realisation of Time, any "Now" will always include before and after in ways that then add the "mystery". My own leanings are towards the synthesis of zen and Pure Land Buddhism, and the 13th century zen master Dogen has been (and is) a great guide and mentor to me. But I must go. Shopping to get, family chores. But I remember the story of Dogen, when in China, searching for his very own path, time and place. Searching for a "master" who would pass muster and do the job for him. In his travels he met an aged cook of a local monastery and had a short conversation, which ended with Dogen saying to the old fellow:- "Would you not rather be studying the Dharma than cooking for the novices at the monastery?" The old guy just laughed out loud! Dogen, when he eventually found his very own path, time and place, only then fully understood why. Anyway, all the best. It is quiet around here. I've simply indulged myself with my own musings. All the best. Derek

The Logos of Sophia 4 Love does not flourish, nor does wisdom thrive in the long shadow of fear. Fear is not reverence. Fear is not the beginning of wisdom. Only they who do willful harm to the innocent have cause to fear. It is not I who change, but you who are now ready to understand rather than merely believe. It is from your own judgment that you most require saving. No longer seek to move forward while looking behind. For no matter how loudly, long or often a lie is told; it does not become true. None are made guilty by another’s act; nor can any be made pure, thereby. Do not bully the helpless, nor swindle the honest. Do not enrich the corrupt, nor impoverish the destitute. May none bask in luxury while children starve. Slavery, in any form is an abomination. To free a slave is admirable and to end slavery altogether is miraculous. That same help you have provided or harm done to anyone, you have done to yourself and to me also. Become the awakening conscience of this world.

Yeah ... I checked with my wife's facebook ... don't get the full Monty so to speak.

It seems as if the Progressive Christian Cohorts have gone into hibernation......😀Which suits me in many ways. I don't respond well to direct questions, nor to overly contentious challenges to whatever waffle proceeds from the dustbin of my mind. "Oh, you see it that way? Interesting. I see it this way" is contentious enough, at least as I see it. Anyway, I thought I would ramble on about William Blake. I won't describe him as artist, poet and mystic, because some seem to think "mystic" has to do with pulling rabbits out of a hat - which just goes to show. So, artist and poet. And a bit of a nutter. He claimed to speak with angels, this among his many visions, and when his brother died he said his saw his soul rising up from the body, ever upwards, "clapping his hands with joy". Way back when I had little love for poetry (meeting only boring quatrains in school that spoke of the glories of British Empire builders strutting the poop deck, or being buried with all honours, bugles playing sad laments - not really my sort of stuff. Maybe if I had known some Spike Milligan it might have all been different) but did read a bit of this fine wordsmith Malcolm Muggeridge, who often weaved into his writings a few couplets of William Blake. I was quite taken by them and once, seeing a cheap copy of "The Portable Blake" I invested. Such is life. As Keith Richards has said, all he wants on his gravestone is:- "He passed it on". The Blues that is, not the cocaine when busted by the police. Well, whatever, I found many of the couplets quoted by Malcolm Muggeridge to have originated from Blake's "Auguries of Innocence". One such I have always remembered as:- " The widows mite is worth much more Than all the gold on Afric's shore" Which is not quite right, as you will see if you plough through the Auguries. Here it is. To see a World in a Grain of Sand And a Heaven in a Wild Flower Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour A Robin Red breast in a Cage Puts all Heaven in a Rage A Dove house filld with Doves andPigeons Shudders Hell thr' all its regions A dog starvd at his Masters Gate Predicts the ruin of the State A Horse misusd upon the Road Calls to Heaven for Human blood Each outcry of the hunted Hare A fibre from the Brain does tear A Skylark wounded in the wing A Cherubim does cease to sing The Game Cock clipped and armed for fight Does the Rising Sun affright Every Wolfs and Lions howl Raises from Hell a Human Soul The wild deer, wandring here and there Keeps the Human Soul from Care The Lamb misusd breeds Public Strife And yet forgives the Butchers knife The Bat that flits at close of Eve Has left the Brain that wont Believe The Owl that calls upon the Night Speaks the Unbelievers fright He who shall hurt the little Wren Shall never be belovd by Men He who the Ox to wrath has movd Shall never be by Woman lovd The wanton Boy that kills the Fly Shall feel the Spiders enmity He who torments the Chafers Sprite Weaves a Bower in endless Night The Catterpiller on the Leaf Repeats to thee thy Mothers grief Kill not the Moth nor Butterfly For the Last Judgment draweth nigh He who shall train the Horse to War Shall never pass the Polar Bar The Beggars Dog and Widows Cat Feed them and thou wilt grow fat The Gnat that sings his Summers Song Poison gets from Slanders tongue The poison of the Snake and Newt Is the sweat of Envys Foot The poison of the Honey Bee Is the Artists Jealousy The Princes Robes and Beggars Rags Are Toadstools on the Misers Bags A Truth thats told with bad intent Beats all the Lies you can invent It is right it should be so Man was made for Joy and Woe And when this we rightly know Thro the World we safely go Joy & woe are woven fine A Clothing for the soul divine Under every grief and pine Runs a joy with silken twine The Babe is more than swadling Bands Throughout all these Human Lands Tools were made and Born were hands Every Farmer Understands Every Tear from Every Eye Becomes a Babe in Eternity This is caught by Females bright And returnd to its own delight The Bleat the Bark Bellow and Roar Are Waves that Beat on Heavens Shore The Babe that weeps the Rod beneath Writes Revenge in realms of Death The Beggars Rags fluttering in Air Does to Rags the Heavens tear The Soldier armd with Sword and Gun Palsied strikes the Summers Sun The poor Mans Farthing is worth more Than all the Gold on Africs Shore One Mite wrung from the Labrers hands Shall buy and sell the Misers Lands Or if protected from on high Does that whole Nation sell and buy He who mocks the Infants Faith Shall be mockd in Age and Death He who shall teach the Child to Doubt The rotting Grave shall neer get out He who respects the Infants faith Triumphs over Hell and Death The Childs Toys and the Old Mans Reasons Are the Fruits of the Two seasons The Questioner who sits so sly Shall never know how to Reply He who replies to words of Doubt Doth put the Light of Knowledge out The Strongest Poison ever known Came from Caesars Laurel Crown Nought can Deform the Human Race Like to the Armours iron brace When Gold and Gems adorn the Plow To peaceful Arts shall Envy Bow A Riddle or the Crickets Cry Is to Doubt a fit Reply The Emmets Inch and Eagles Mile Make Lame Philosophy to smile He who Doubts from what he sees Will neer Believe do what you Please If the Sun and Moon should Doubt Theyd immediately Go out To be in a Passion you Good may Do But no Good if a Passion is in you The Whore and Gambler by the State Licencd build that Nations Fate The Harlots cry from Street to Street Shall weave Old Englands winding Sheet The Winners Shout the Losers Curse Dance before dead Englands Hearse Every Night and every Morn Some to Misery are Born Every Morn and every Night Some are Born to sweet delight Some are Born to sweet delight Some are Born to Endless Night We are led to Believe a Lie When we see not Thro the Eye Which was Born in a Night to perish in a Night When the Soul Slept in Beams of Light God Appears and God is Light To those poor Souls who dwell in Night But does a Human Form Display To those who Dwell in Realms of day The perceptive will perhaps note that Blake's spelling left something to be desired, and his capitalisation was idiosyncratic to say the least. And:- The Bat that flits at close of Eve Has left the Brain that wont Believe More than just bats perhaps! But anyway, some great couplets there. enough for a lifetimes reflection if we do not reach for final conclusions. But the word "Innocence" leads to one of Blake's most well known Illuminated Books, "Songs of Innocence and of Experience", which show the two "contrary states of the human soul". Which will serve as the intro to my next post, whenever. Thank you.

Well thank you David! You grow on me! ( I need sympathy today, having just had our "old folks" Christmas Dinner and afterwards a Christmas sing song by a guy who looked remarkably like David Brent [Ricky Gervais] ) PS You may not know the character, he was in the sitcom "The Office", a UK show.

Thanks ... I think I understand. This origins in some reality is it natural in that there is no so called Godly intervention?

Hi everyone. As the title says, my name is Christian and I'm Christianity-curious. I have an amazing wife, and also a cat named Goose, who I named my account after, lol. In my early teenage years, I was a fundamentalist, creationist, far-right Christian. That world view, I think, is filled with endless flaws and ignorance. Creationism and hardline Christianity are really hard to justify against our modern understanding of the world, eg. earth literally being 6,000 years old. So naturally as I got older, I let go of my religion and eventually became what I might call a "militant" atheist. Endless debating, YouTube videos debunking logical fallacies etc. However, since I became married, we've had our ups and downs, and at times I've felt pretty desperate. I've also had a few existential crisis' that brought on some really heavy anxiety. I bring this up to say that my view towards Christianity has softened, and I'm curious about it again. I left Christianity originally because I thought "well if I don't accept that the earth is 6,000 years old, I can't be a Christian". It hasn't been until recently that I realized wait a minute, there's an entire group of non-bigoted, non-denialist Christians. So here I am! You guys can look forward to lots of questions from me. Has anyone else on here had a similar arc in their faith? I'm very curious what y'alls experience has been. Thanks!

Hi My Name is Desmond, I am a Christian and I really resonate with Progressive Christianity, Christian Mysticism, and Pentecostalism. I'm looking to make friends with Christian men mainly at the moment. I live in a Liberal college town and I realized a couple years ago: I don't have any Christian friends so I'm trying to change that.... Also I don't have many close friends period.

I gave an example of entire cultures who perceive spirituality as going beyond their individual experiences and even beyond human or living being experiences. For you, that's just more examples of individuals having their own perceptions, for me, it's an example of humans who are tapped into something larger than themselves. That's why I say I cannot and don't endeavour to prove it. I can't answer your question to any degree of satisfaction, because if it's totally reasonable and rational for someone to write off the experience and just neural perception. I know because I'm a former atheist, and no one would have been able to answer the question you asked me to any degree that would satisfy me. There's no way for me or anyone else of faith to provide any evidence that our experience of connection to something more than ourselves isn't just a delusion or trick of the brain.

I can't and don't try to prove anything of the sort. My argument is not that spirituality legitimately exists, and definitely not that I can prove it, my argument is that spirituality/religion can co-exist in a complementary fashion with science. I cannot be clearer about this. I do not see untestable things as incompatible with science.

Asking questions would be politely asking for clarification or explication with the objective of gaining a deeper understanding. Calling someone’s religious beliefs nonsense is dismissive. So is being argumentative. Rom, this is a spiritual forum not a scientific one. We are not on a fact finding mission. We are trying to maintain a sense of wonder, inquisitiveness, and attune our perceptions to revelation and enlightenment.

The apostles walk in on Jesus getting a massage and accuse him of hypocrisy. Jesus responds by explaining his time is short. The mention of the poor is not a sermon and should not be read as such. Personally I never leave the house without a few half-dollars, silver dollars and $2 bills and give to anyone who asks.

There are many churches that fall short, but remember in Christianity the focus is on improving the spiritual condition of the Christian giver. The metric is not how much poverty is relieved (the poor will be with us always) but on how much suffering the Christian is willing to accept on behalf of the sufferer (widow’s mite). “Giving until it hurts” requires faith. The well-off who give much out of their abundance are merely acting ethically. The Buddhist understanding is similar. The poor provide the better off with an opportunity for spiritual improvement.

Hello, I have recently began my search and i am wondering what peoples experiences are with mediums and psychics. I have talked to a lot of people (including Christians and progressive Christians) who have seen or felt spirits. Furthermore, many of these people have had good experiences with mediums and psychics who also have a connection with Jesus. I personally have never see or felt anything. My worry is that there is nothing......i was raised in a Baptist church but never felt the presence of god. I have faith but this is based on my fears that their is nothing as opposed to actually having felt or experienced anything. Does anyone have any experiences that they would feel comfortable sharing?

Welcome! I am a big fan of the Apostolic Fathers.

Tough one. I think our language is ill equipped to define what may exist in the universe that is independent of physics and chemistry. So I'm going to ramble for a bit, if you'll indulge me, because I can't deny that there is something... We often refer to it as 'something else', something undefined, unexplained, strange or surreal, a sensation, a gut feeling, a sense we can't put into words. We struggle to observe it, measure it or quantify it objectively, and often dismiss it because it exists only within the subjective experience itself, and is changed by the act of observation or measurement. Perhaps it is that 'wave of potentiality' inherent in each particle, oscillating continually in spaces between molecules, between elements of matter, between life forms and objects. Perhaps it is 'life' in action. We tend to think of the universe in terms of subjective experiences that we can share with others. If I experience something, I know it is real only if that experience is verified by others. The more people I can share it with, the more real it seems. If others can't relate to what I communicate then they doubt the experience, and I begin to wonder myself if I really experienced it at all. This is the basis of science. The key is communication. If I see a flash of light move briefly across the sky at night and disappear, then I turn to others around me and ask "Did you see that?" "See what?" "That bright flash moving across the sky." "Where?" "Over there, above that clump of trees." "When?" "Just a second ago." "Oh - no, I was looking at my phone." "Oh." Then someone else speaks up. "I thought I saw something, too." "You did?" "There was a flash out of the corner of my eye. In that direction." "Yes! It was moving down like this, and then it disappeared." "What was it?" "Maybe it was a meteor?" "Probably. It makes sense." The flash of light could very well have been a meteor, or it could have been something else. But it is an experience successfully shared through communication, and that makes it 'real'. But sometimes we respond to something in our subjective experience that we fail to share or verify convincingly with others. David Eggers' novel The Circle illustrates this purely subjective element of experience, and its rapidly decreasing importance in a world that relies more and more on sharable data. A crucial turning point in the novel comes when the main character must justify her decision to paddle on the river alone, without sharing the experience with others. She is unable to articulate the value of her unique experience, where she encountered a group of seals, and eventually accepts that her actions were dangerous, selfish and anti-social. For those of us who acknowledge the value of such an experience independent of any sharable data, her capitulation at this point is tragic. Society may be rapidly approaching that point where you can no longer trust your own experience - as if you didn't really go on that holiday or swim with dolphins unless you've posted a selfie on Instagram to prove it, and it's almost considered selfish or anti-social to not share everything. But the experience of paddling with seals or swimming with dolphins can't be fully expressed in a selfie, a tweet, or even a conversation. There is an element to the experience that can't be recorded or measured, satisfactorily explained with physics or chemistry, or proven to exist. Admittedly, you won't understand quite what I'm talking about unless you've perhaps swum with dolphins yourself, and even then you may not have been fully in the moment, or your own experience may have had a different focus. I'm think maybe what we insufficiently describe as the 'beauty' or the 'magic' of such an experience exists only in the space between molecules that are actively participating in that particular place and time. You're either conscious of it at the time, or you're not. And once the moment has passed, your memories (the retrievable data in your mind) can only point to the experience without recapturing it entirely. The subjective value of the experience leaves no trace in your physiology that can be reliably attributed to anything other than a 'feeling' or 'emotion', which we then reduce to chemistry and physics. But every possible method you have available to objectively share this subjective value with others feels incomplete, insufficient. Something isn't covered. And yet it is that 'something' more than anything measurable, that has changed you. Your view of the world is different, your decisions affected, even in some small way, by the experience. The closest you may get to sharing such an experience is through artistic expression: fine art, literature, dance, music, sculpture, theatre, film, etc. In this way you can attempt to fabricate a subjective experience for others that approximates your own. Looking at pictures of Michelangelo's David, for instance, or reading a book on the subject, is so far removed from the lived experience of standing at the statue's feet imagining a young man at the turning point of his career, embarking on a task that many 'greater men' had abandoned, using nothing but a questionable method of approach, his courage and his raw potential. The parallels are striking, and the result is nothing short of a masterpiece. The experience is as if thousands of years and thousands of miles were condensed into the truth of humanity carved into this block of stone, humanity in the process of conquering its sense of fragility and realising its own awesome potential. But many people don't share this experience at the feet of David. Does that make mine less credible? If I make decisions based on this experience, can it be reduced to chemistry or physics, or is there something else there? Is inspiration perhaps independent of physics or chemistry...?

Hi everyone, you may call my Davy, Dave, David, or whatever you like I'm a newly baptised Australian Christian, and am seeking like-minded family in the Lord. My current family seemed to judge me very critically, as I divulged my past during a prayer meeting last night. I felt really put off by this because I was pouring out my heart and being open and trusting of which I've struggled in the past, and which made me feel like shutting down again. I'm suffering from a number of conditions due to emotional pain from past abusers, and of my past in general which has been very trying. But with the help of the Lord Almighty, I hope to overcome all my issues and settle into a good year of study at university this year where I'm enrolled in English with a major in Writing. I have some physical issues which are debilitating to some extent, and am on a disability pension for my past mental health issues (which re-occur occasionally) but also am on the autism spectrum and for this reason will seek to have my pension reinstated on this basis. I'm boarderline level 2 aspie which means that I do need support to live properly. I need others and have suffered from suicidal depression in the past. From which I've attempted several times, and have since put some effort into bettering myself. I'm hoping for much help from the Lord, in being self sufficient, and capable of completing my studies this year, and hopefully into the future, for I really need to complete this course in order to honour my Mother who wishes I could complete a course instead of dropping out through hardships.

At twenty paces!

Branching off from our thread on Agnosticism, I've wondered what it would take for me to be a theist again. Back when I was a theist, I was an external theist. In other words, I believed in God because of what the bible said, or what the Church said, or what Christianity said. A good, common definition of a theist is someone who believes in God as a supernatural being who is personally involved in our lives. I believed that way for many years, yet, in hindsight, I found little evidence that God personally loved me or that he listened to and answered my prayers or that he had some kind of great and wonderful plan for my life. In fact, I left theism because the evidence for such a God was so paltry. So what would it take for me to be a theist again? I guess it would have to take mystical theism. I mean, consider the mystics in the bible. God personally appears to Abraham and Moses and speaks to them (according to the biblical record). God personally appears to Jesus, talks to him, answers his prayers. Jesus, who is God in Christendom, personally appears to Saul and speaks to him. Nothing in these theistic accounts is "hearsay." These people claimed to experience the personal, living God. And these experiences changed them. That's what I would need in order to be a theist again. I'm not going to trust in hearsay. If God is truly personal (as theists claim he is), then he should personally appear and speak to me. There should be some evidence that convinces me that he exists and is real, at least as a "person" (or three persons as Christians say he is). I'm 58 now. To date, God is a no-show for me. As a theist, I had to trust the testimonies and experiences of others. No longer. I won't hold to second-hand faith. I tend to believe the adage, "The invisible and the unreal often look pretty much the same."

I too believe Christianity 'overstepped' when trying to come to terms with the divinity/humanity of Jesus. I think it was a human effort gone wrong; I think believers, Church leaders and thinkers were trying to 'capture' or say something about this man in whom they 'experienced' God and lost their way. They were limited by their worldview, by Greek philosophy and by the desire to head off what they seriously thought was wrong opinion. However, harm was done, yet one wonders if Christianity would have made any impact if not for them. I agree that the theophany is and continues to be a stumbling block yet many theologians and thinkers have moved to the ideas that we 'are born to be' the manifestations or embodiments of Divinity. And realizing and living out this reality would/could be incredibly transformative. As to the idea of God doing something about suffering and death in the world, I accept that the latter is inevitable since we are mortal. It is the former, especially the undeserved tragic suffering (cf. Wendy Farley) that is the issue for many. Following others but especially influenced by Farley, I believe she has hit on something important and I believe you have hit on it too: Love which created and by its very nature must 'step back' is immanent, impacting creation. However, that Love must be incarnated or embodied in and through humanity to heal (very broadly understood) and effect a change in the 'undeserved tragic suffering' that robs us of our 'humanity' before death takes us. Source will follow soon.

My son was "warned" at his place of employment that the end was nigh. I've lived long enough to see this kind of thing come around and around every few years. In fact, when I was very young, the film "A Thief in the Night" (about the rapture) scared the dickens out of me, so much so that I questioned my salvation and rightness with God for quite a while. As PaulS pointed out, even Jesus taught that he would return in his generation to establish the kingdom of God on earth. So far, he is still a "no show". Personally, I have no need or use for fear-based religion and, perhaps like you, Joseph, I would simply wait for the steam to run out. To me, there is no sense in arguing with those caught up in end-of-the-world scenarios or fear-based faith. Fear is seldom rational. To me, if/when the end does come, it will be due to our own short-sightedness as human beings or due to the natural course of nature (our sun becoming a red giant). I no longer fear or expect God's intervention.

It's a disgusting comment and typical of his small mindedness toward justice. What about all the innocent people who are arrested by police but later released when proper investigations demonstrate their innocence? What, too bad for them, they should just get hurt by the police anyway? Don't be nice to them just because they might not be innocent? Craziness.

Welcome Lani, I grew up in a fundamental church in Australia (Churches of Christ) which was very much like the Baptists. Around 18/19 I was leaving that sort of Christianity but came back for a brief 6-9 months to a Baptist church (before I finally decided that I was right in leaving Christianity behind in the first place ). So I am very familiar with those teachings of Hell. When I was 40 (9 years ago) I too suffered a bit of an existential crisis when as a result of suffering anxiety (caused by financial matters and probably aggravated by career and young family pressures) my friend told me it was Jesus trying to call me back. This brought back all my childhood teachings about Hell and the requirement to 'believe in Jesus'. I had a very hard time of it for nearly a year. But I found this forum and some other progressive christian authors and scholars who helped me learn more about the history of Christianity, including what we can say for certain and what we can't. Why I like this forum is it has shown me that I didn't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are some positive things about progressive Christianity that I find value in (which incidentally I think can also be found elsewhere too, but Christianity is the religion I am most familiar with). But for me, condemning unbelievers to an eternal punishment is certainly not one of them and this place has helped me understand what I consider a better picture of Christianity, based on better biblical scholarship and interpretation than what I had been indoctrinated with. I hope you enjoy participating here. There is also a lot of information in previous threads that you will find throughout the archives. Cheers Paul

On the odd occasion it has been questioned why I am here and I have gotten the sense of the question why is my presence even tolerated? is being asked. Is my lack of belief so threatening? Karen Armstrong said in her book The Case for God “Religion was a matter of doing rather than thinking” ​And somewhere in the same book it she goes on to suggest Christians focus too much their beliefs rather than what they do. I volunteer at the local community chest, community living, Rotary and other organizations. Is that not Christian enough? I am surprised by that at times a Christian (especially a progressive one) might baulk at contact on this forum with those that don't have the same beliefs. I would have thought it is this contact that is the "doing" that is of value rather than the "thinking".

Hi Bonnie

Not to derail this thread further (for many people are blessed by Lectionary readings and study), but I think you make a great point, Paul, about the state of the world and Christianity's role in helping our world. For far too long, IMO, Christianity has embedded itself in the sin/savior myth that posits that the world is broken, in sin, and that the only remedy is for God and/or Jesus to save it through either forgiveness or destruction (in order to create another world). This myth teaches that we can do little to nothing to help our current state except to plead to God to come rescue us. The result of this, in much of Christianity, is escapism and waiting for Jesus to return at any moment with God's divine clean-up plan. Granted, it is an appealing myth. But I don't find it to line up very well with most of Jesus' teachings. I don't see anywhere in Jesus' teachings where he says that we are born in sin. And while some of his statements seem to imply that he would return shortly, he also stressed that his followers should be about the business of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, helping the poor, working for justice, visiting prisoners, etc. I haven't been able to thoroughly plumb all of his teachings about it, but Jesus seems to say that the kingdom is already here, already in the human heart. I don't see this so much as a remedy to some "sin problem" but as a seed to the growth and maturation of humanity that could heal the places in ourselves and in our world that need healing. Yes, the world is a wonderful and amazing place and we are an incredible species. But we are still immature and have a ways to go before we are fully human. And I think, in my own Christology, that Jesus, in some sense, shows us what it is like to be fully human. He was ahead of his time. The Gentile church didn't know what to do with that, so they declared him to be divine. In doing so, he lost his humanity. And I think that changed his role from example to savior, and I think a great deal was lost in this demotion. This is why, for me, Jesus is not a way to get to heaven. Rather, he shows me how genuine relationships grounded in compassion can change the world, not from sinners to saint, but from strangers to friends.

Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to a better understanding of ourselves. Carl Jung

To me Progressive Christianity is a more spacious place where I can be myself and express myself without having to look over my shoulder to see who's disapproval I have gained by something that I spoke out about. In my old life as a church worker in a charismatic/evangelical church you had to speak a certain way about things they did not agree with, being careful to suggest that you to understood other points of view about Jesus and faith, but that you only understood them to mock or compare them to your own church and its faith. Where your church was right and they were unbiblical or under the influence of evil spirits. So to me Progressive Christianity is the beginging of a journey into grace, forgiveness and hope.

As others have similarly expressed, Progressive Christianity to me is a path that embraces pluralism and gets away from systematized, exclusive absolutes, and where intellectual honesty is much more likely to be valued. This is, of course, a risky endeavor, because it opens us to uncharted terrain. There is much potential for tenderness, love, and meaning to be creatively discovered. That word, 'creative', is essential. Creativity - in practice, social realization, philosophy, theology, metaphysics, art, etc., - I think can truly develop into a unique hallmark feature of PC, because of PC's inclusiveness. Without that creativity, I think we risk superficiality, again, because of its inclusiveness -- it might become somewhat amorphous and ambiguous, lacking bite.