Presidential Poll 2020

[thormas]

The orange, impeached trumpster has no shame: he hides in the WH bunker then, after having police clear a peaceful demonstration before the curfew even went into effect, he struts to a Church and then poses with a Bible (or a Prayer book - not that he would know the difference) and his fans faint at his boldness and give praise for what they think is strength. Oh sad day when a President threatens his own people with their military.

[PaulS]

16 hours ago, JosephM said:

Sometimes ... people have to be divided (or separated) before they can come back together stronger. 

Well he does seem to have the division (separation) part down pat.  Do you think he has a plan and/or the ability to bring the US back together as a people?

[thormas]

7 hours ago, PaulS said:

Well he does seem to have the division (separation) part down pat.  Do you think he has a plan and/or the ability to bring the US back together as a people?

If you saw his performance yesterday, the answer is a resounding NO! to putting us back together......... threatens his own people with their military.

[JosephM]

9 hours ago, PaulS said:

Well he does seem to have the division (separation) part down pat.  Do you think he has a plan and/or the ability to bring the US back together as a people?

We were already divided and fed up as a people. Trump merely accented that division and is cheered on for standing up against the news media, the Washington cesspool and other political machines that had Americans deceived and asleep. Wake up America. Earl Pitts here... 🙂😄😀

No, i don't think he has a plan but i don't know. Either way the pandemic is bringing some together and whats left will after some suffering find its way past this 'love hate' relationship that Thomas seems to exemplify so well by his comments.

PS.  Whether Trump is conscious of it or not, he is being used to further our collective consciousness and while difficult to see is what the US needs right now.

[thormas]

4 hours ago, JosephM said:

.........for standing up against the news media, the Washington cesspool and other political machines that had Americans deceived and asleep

More conspiracy theories. But the impeached one creates his own fake news (how many lies now), feels persecuted when even Fox tells the truth and calls him on his blunders and cruelty, enlarged the cesspool with his family (little Jared working on everything, succeeding on nothing) and cronies and his political 'machine' trashes the constitution (and now the Bible) and destroys even Republicans that he grows weary of or who actually have ethics. 

And those who stand and cheer sink into that cesspool and buy into his conspiracies. Sad days

No truer words were spoken, "No, i don't think he has a plan..."  And after 100,000 + deaths to talk about "what's left." How even more sad is that? 

We will never get past the love/hate with the impeached trumpster in office ........and my comments come only after the reality that has been wrought by the trumpster (and his sycophants). I don't love/hate the impeached one (let him go live in Florida and play golf), I simply accept that he is a fool and a failure on all levels and harmful to the people, the country and the world: see the Reality don't wallow in illusion.

Overcome the blindness exemplified by the trumpster and his fans.

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by thormas

[PaulS]

13 hours ago, JosephM said:

We were already divided and fed up as a people. Trump merely accented that division and is cheered on for standing up against the news media, the Washington cesspool and other political machines that had Americans deceived and asleep. Wake up America. Earl Pitts here... 🙂😄😀

No, i don't think he has a plan but i don't know. Either way the pandemic is bringing some together and whats left will after some suffering find its way past this 'love hate' relationship that Thomas seems to exemplify so well by his comments.

PS.  Whether Trump is conscious of it or not, he is being used to further our collective consciousness and while difficult to see is what the US needs right now.

Do you regard yourself as one of the Americans who were deceived by and asleep to the news media, the Washington cesspool and other political machines?  If so, how has Trump made things clearer to you now?  

Why and how do you see people finding their way past this 'love hate' relationship in the post-Covid19 days (whenever that may be)?  Certainly hardship does bring people together for a period, but to me it doesn't seem to take long for old ways to return, unless there is some significant change to prevent that return.  I don't think Covid19 alone is that change and to me it would seem that if anything, Trump continues to drive a wedge into the American people to further divide those that favor his politics versus those that do not, and tragedies such as Covid19 and these latest post-Floyd-death developments seem to me to be tools he takes advantages of rather than actively try to fix them or help those in need.  At least, that's how it seems to me.

[JosephM]

10 hours ago, PaulS said:

Do you regard yourself as one of the Americans who were deceived by and asleep to the news media, the Washington cesspool and other political machines?  If so, how has Trump made things clearer to you now?  

No. Our news reporting has been biased and sometimes even in my opinion incompetent in the things they reported without knowledge in many things i have experience in. Also I listen to the full transcripts of what the president says and then read the news reports and find things constatntly taken out of context and amplified for political gain.  Both political side do it but it is unbalanced and being done especially now that the elections are coming up in November.

Quote

Why and how do you see people finding their way past this 'love hate' relationship in the post-Covid19 days (whenever that may be)?  Certainly hardship does bring people together for a period, but to me it doesn't seem to take long for old ways to return, unless there is some significant change to prevent that return.  I don't think Covid19 alone is that change and to me it would seem that if anything, Trump continues to drive a wedge into the American people to further divide those that favor his politics versus those that do not, and tragedies such as Covid19 and these latest post-Floyd-death developments seem to me to be tools he takes advantages of rather than actively try to fix them or help those in need.  At least, that's how it seems to me.

Hate breeds unhappiness and irrational actions. People will suffer from this and in time people get the idea that the real cause of their suffering is internal and putting the blame on others is not the solution. Trump is a unique leader with a style unlike any before him but i do not see him as he is painted by the news that is plagued with reporting on condition of anonymity and out of context statements. Facebook and social media is in my opinion filled with so much misinformation that is propagated rapidly at least in the cases i have researched . News is for the most part slanted negatively for political purposes . The president in my research  immediately condemned the act against George Floyd and is not against peaceful protests and change but the liberal media and both Black and White criminals are using these peaceful protesters to incite riots, loot and destroy both  black and white businesses . The average person has got the message of the protests and further proliferation will only destroy our cities. Violence must stop for talks and change to begin. In my experience, the large majority of police here are not like the officers who killed Floyd. I don't see Trump doing anything except to try to protect peoples livelihood. He is not in charge of city or state police but if they can't protect law abiding citizens then he will use the military and i do not object.

As far as COvid-19, most problem areas have been in really big cities and Trump is doing the best he can with what he had to work with. Sure, if you believe everything you read in the papers and fact check every word he says you can paint a picture of him that looks poorly as you can with most anyone. Many other countries (11 of them) had more deaths per population than the US.  Austrailia is unique in many ways and its layout does have advantages with the virus. About 90% of the deaths are from large cities and the Federal government makes recommendations but doesn't control them. Governors and Cities have control so while the Federal government takes the heat for not being prepared, why were the states and large cities also not prepared. It's much easier to blame others (Trump) rather than take personal responsibility for your own state or city. We will see how the people really feel in November. 

 

[thormas]

Yet the point Paul raised was never addressed: "Trump continues to drive a wedge into the American people to further divide those that favor his politics versus those that do not, and tragedies such as Covid19 and these latest post-Floyd-death developments seem to me to be tools he takes advantages of rather than actively try to fix them or help those in need." And this from someone a world away in Australia.

"A unique leader" yet you "don't think he has a plan."  A new definition of unique....................but no lack of conspiracy theories.

 

[JosephM]

5 hours ago, thormas said:

A unique leader" yet you "don't think he has a plan."  A new definition of unique....................but no lack of conspiracy theories.

Try not to cut up my quote sentences Thomas . I said I don't think so but i don't know.

[thormas]

21 minutes ago, JosephM said:

Try not to cut up my quote sentences Thomas . I said I don't think so but i don't know.

You said he was a unique leader and you may not know (unless you're on his 'administration' team) but you did say you don't think he has one (incredibly telling for a fan who thinks he is unique). COVID, unemployment, police killing, peaceful protests and riots ..........and he has no plan. And, indeed, a goodly majority of the people agree!

That sums it up very nicely.

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by thormas

[JosephM]

I think you are also unique Thomas. Hopefully you understand that being unique doesn't mean i am a fan or agree with everything said.

[thormas]

1 hour ago, JosephM said:

I think you are also unique Thomas. 

Thank you :+}

Yet it was the trumpster that you said was not simply unique (as we all are) but a unique leader and you follow it up with the conspiracies theories of the impeached one as a perpetual victim. Right out of his own playbook, sounds like it's from his campaign talking points.

How telling is this beauty, "I don't see Trump doing anything except to try to protect peoples livelihood. He is not in charge of city or state police but if they can't protect law abiding citizens then he will use the military and i do not object."  And in his little mind, he was totally justified the other night in DC........so that was protecting peoples' livelihood and protecting law abiding citizens and you didn't see that as something else? As it was peaceful then they were within their rights and they were the law abiding citizens. See how that works? The trumpster doesn't.......he needed to strut like a strongman!

So, you agree with the clearing of the streets of actual peaceful protestors so he could walk to a Church (photo op) and then hold a Bible for a photo op?

 

Joseph, I think we should leave this conversation since I see no response to numerous questions which I understand given who you are trying to defend.

 

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by thormas

[thormas]

22 hours ago, PaulS said:

Trump continues to drive a wedge into the American people to further divide those that favor his politics versus those that do not, and tragedies such as Covid19 and these latest post-Floyd-death developments seem to me to be tools he takes advantages of rather than actively try to fix them or help those in need.  

Paul,

Agreement with your premise from Jim Mattis: "“Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people — does not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us.”

 

[PaulS]

15 hours ago, JosephM said:

No. Our news reporting has been biased and sometimes even in my opinion incompetent in the things they reported without knowledge in many things i have experience in. Also I listen to the full transcripts of what the president says and then read the news reports and find things constatntly taken out of context and amplified for political gain.  Both political side do it but it is unbalanced and being done especially now that the elections are coming up in November.

I would be interested if there was actually any scientific or rigorous data to support this claim (the claim of bias).  Bias seems to be one of those words that gets substituted for 'opinion'.  As this article claims - 

The problem with anecdotal evidence is twofold. First, as pedants will happily explain, cherry-picking examples from a group, intentionally or not, doesn’t necessarily give you a good sense of what that group contains. (In fact, the odds are that it doesn’t.) But that problem is compounded by the other problem: Anecdotal data can seem more immediate and personal because it’s something that we ourselves have experienced.

So we get situations like “the media,” a term that means whatever you happen to want it to mean in the context in which you’re using it. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/04/08/television-news-coverage-democrats-is-uneven-not-way-you-might-think/

Can you demonstrate to what degree news reporting in the United States is unbalanced, or is it just your interpretation based on your personal experiences?

Quote

Hate breeds unhappiness and irrational actions. People will suffer from this and in time people get the idea that the real cause of their suffering is internal and putting the blame on others is not the solution. Trump is a unique leader with a style unlike any before him but i do not see him as he is painted by the news that is plagued with reporting on condition of anonymity and out of context statements. Facebook and social media is in my opinion filled with so much misinformation that is propagated rapidly at least in the cases i have researched . News is for the most part slanted negatively for political purposes . The president in my research  immediately condemned the act against George Floyd and is not against peaceful protests and change but the liberal media and both Black and White criminals are using these peaceful protesters to incite riots, loot and destroy both  black and white businesses . The average person has got the message of the protests and further proliferation will only destroy our cities. Violence must stop for talks and change to begin. In my experience, the large majority of police here are not like the officers who killed Floyd. I don't see Trump doing anything except to try to protect peoples livelihood. He is not in charge of city or state police but if they can't protect law abiding citizens then he will use the military and i do not object.

Facebook and social media (including Trump's Twitter feed) have no credibility whatsoever in my eyes either.  So we can agree on that.  They are not news outlets but are forums designed for entertainment.  That doesn't stop them from being abused as we have seen - e.g. Russian misuse of social media to interfere with and impact on the US Election in efforts to have Trump elected.

Indeed Trump is unique with a style unlike any before him, but I don't see that as a good thing.  It seems to me that he may have a strength for breaking stuff, but he seems incapable of building things up.  I have seen very little in that regard in the last nearly 4 years.  My fear for your country is that it is heading down this path of brokenness and disunity and the only hope you seem to have is that people will work it out for themselves, in the face of a President who continues to foster division.  I just don't see how you think people are going to just come together for the better.

Regarding Trump 'immediately' condemning the act against George Floyd, I look at Trump's Twitter feed for instance and whilst George was killed on May 25, the first reference that Trump made was on 29 May and it wasn't to condemn the acts against Floyd but rather to condemn the management of the crisis in Minneapolis: "I can’t stand back & watch this happen to a great American City, Minneapolis. A total lack of leadership. Either the very weak Radical Left Mayor, Jacob Frey, get his act together and bring the City under control, or I will send in the National Guard & get the job done right.....".  No mention of Floyd at this point.  Later on he thought to mention something more about Floyd's memory.  So to me, his first instinct wasn't to empathize and to heal, but to fuel dissent and political divides.  It does seem to be a trademark of his.

I have no issue with condemning the looting and using law enforcement, even the national guard, to stem the violence.  Personally, I think calling in the military is a step too far, but like you say, he is unique.  But I don't think anybody should be waiting for the violence to stop to try and implement peaceful solution and talks.  This should be symbiotic, not one dependent on the other.  Violence and force does not win hearts and minds.  That's not to say force should not be used to prevent loss and harm, just that it is only one tool and I think Trump would do better by the US if he started trying to heal than keep dividing.

You see Trump as only interested in protecting people's livelihoods.  Whilst I don't doubt that is part of his interest, I just don't think it is his only interest at all.  Take his efforts on visiting St John's Church into account - citizens who weren't breaking the law or in breach of the curfew were attacked to ensure Trump has free access to stroll across to the Church and self-promote.  It wasn't a message of unity, it wasn't a message of empathy, it wasn't any genuine effort to help resolve the situation.  It was a self-promoting, photo-op, to try and look like a tough guy - your 'law and order' President, playing straight to a Christian base that seems to me to blindly support him.  This interview with the Bishop of the Diocese that covers that Church explains it better than me:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/bishop-budde-on-trumps-inflammatory-rhetoric-and-how-he-can-help-the-nation-heal

 

Quote

As far as COvid-19, most problem areas have been in really big cities and Trump is doing the best he can with what he had to work with. Sure, if you believe everything you read in the papers and fact check every word he says you can paint a picture of him that looks poorly as you can with most anyone. Many other countries (11 of them) had more deaths per population than the US.  Austrailia is unique in many ways and its layout does have advantages with the virus. About 90% of the deaths are from large cities and the Federal government makes recommendations but doesn't control them. Governors and Cities have control so while the Federal government takes the heat for not being prepared, why were the states and large cities also not prepared. It's much easier to blame others (Trump) rather than take personal responsibility for your own state or city. We will see how the people really feel in November. 

Nobody was prepared, and I don't think Trump or anybody else should be afraid to admit that.  What you were clearly lacking in the US was leadership when the states were overwhelmed.  If your President isn't there for the primary reason of leading the country, including in times of crisis, then I'm not sure what role you hope the Presidency is fulfilling.

 

 

[JosephM]

Well Paul, It is extremely difficult from your vantage point to view what is really happening since your input is the mainstream media ( mainline newspapers) whose headlines draw conclusions and state their opinion rather than just research and report facts to the people and allow them to make up their own mind. Scratch social  media which is filled with garbage and lies on both sides.

On the church visit it was just 15 minutes before curfew, the site of the day before where destruction of church property and other property took place. The people were asked to vacate the street 3 times after an all day mostly peaceful protest. People defied the order to start clearing out in preparation for the curfew and agitators in the crowd convinced many to stay in defiance so they used a form of gas to disperse the crowd.  Most all the major newspapers are extremely liberal and biased against Trump and Republicans. You can research to find which ones report all negatives and have him portrayed as Thomas describes. Fox news is slanted somewhat the other way but is more balanced in my opinion. Got to run. Later gator.

[thormas]

1 hour ago, JosephM said:

Well Paul, It is extremely difficult from your vantage point to view what is really happening since your input is the mainstream media ( mainline newspapers) whose headlines draw conclusions and state their opinion rather than just research and report facts to the people and allow them to make up their own mind. Scratch social  media which is filled with garbage and lies on both sides.

 

Talk about dismissing the view of another: I was impressed with Paul's statement and analysis - and again you dip into conspiracy theories about the 4th estate.

1 hour ago, JosephM said:

On the church visit it was just 15 minutes before curfew, the site of the day before where destruction of church property and other property took place. The people were asked to vacate the street 3 times after an all day mostly peaceful protest. People defied the order to start clearing out in preparation for the curfew and agitators in the crowd convinced many to stay in defiance so they used a form of gas to disperse the crowd.  Most all the major newspapers are extremely liberal and biased against Trump and Republicans. You can research to find which ones report all negatives and have him portrayed as Thomas describes. Fox news is slanted somewhat the other way but is more balanced in my opinion. Got to run. Later gator.

You prevaricate - it was 15 minutes before the curfew and it was a peaceful protest - so legal. The sole reason to unleash the force was Barr's so his boss could do the photo op -at the expense of citizens. Regardless of 'requests' the curfew hadn't been reached and they were within their rights to protest. 

 'Agitators' - another favorite trumpster talking point. Still it was legal and still prior to the curfew.

You ignore a man like Mattis who is not with any paper or the Bishop of the St. John's or priest/bishops who were aghast at the trumpster's photo-op at the Pope Paul shrine. If those stories are in the papers or on media shows............they are reporting the facts as presented.

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by thormas

[JosephM]

Paul,

The report on using the military was out of context from what i heard him say.  He was speaking to the State cities and governors and American people to assure them he would not tolerate anymore looting , killing burning of cities and physical violence and that if their police and other resources available to them couldn't protect its citizens and business from further violence, destroying of property, etc he would invoke an old law we have to use the military to get the job done. As a citizen, in my view he telling them to do their job and protect the people against violent demonstrators who are inciting others to commit crimes.and if not he would intervene. I hope it is not necessary but i support his decision and think the news put a negative slant on what he actually said for political reasons..

[JosephM]

What was done to George Floyd was as agreed by everyone i know, inexcusable.  Action for justice was quickly taken and charges now upgraded to murder 2 and other  officers present also charged for not intervening on Floyd's behalf. People have been through a lot with the coronavirus shutdown and the virus impact on peoples lives and livelihood. Still, we cannot allow this destroying of businesses , destruction of property and beatings and killings of police officers , innocent store owners and other people as retaliation to continue. We get the message of the peaceful protesters and the riots and violence just make things worse. The majority of protesters are peaceful but there are people both black and white that want to start a revolution and are trying to do so by using this event to destroy what ordinary citizens have spent their life's work building. It serves no useful purpose in advancing change to allow people with other agendas to incite others to commit such acts . These videos are not what the Floyd family wanted.  https://www.vogue.com/article/terence-floyd-brother-george-floyd-calls-for-violence-to-end

 

[thormas]

Good god, all these issues are of utmost importance.

Cover-19, high unemployment (both having the greatest impact on people of color), the murder of a black man by police in the light of day (such murders that have happened much too often) and the protests for generations (little kids through grandparents) of black men and women, and those of other races who not only support them but who are also incensed by such wanton, unethical, violence that spits in the face of what we believe about this country.

Sure we don't want the destruction that has gone on in cities but everyone who knows anything, knows this is not the work of most of these protestors across the country. Yet the protests were necessary and they are working. Two young black men had a long discussion with a police chief and they said 'it would not have happened without the protests.' True. How many black citizens have been murdered and there are protests, talks, funerals, promises made and great speeches.........and it all goes back to 'same old, same old' until the next time. Seemingly not this time! There are protests across the country and shared across races that 'this is enough, no more: no promises, no return to normal, it must end now.'

As said there are those in the protest that want to create havoc. But that is not most of the protestors, so let them protest and let change be made - black citizens cannot let it continue, no American can let it continue. Has most of America ever gotten the 'message of the peaceful protestors?' Perhaps for a very short time but It seems not or we would not be here yet again. Imagine if you are black, if your son is black, if you know a friend or family member who has been stopped, harassed, arrested, assaulted, murdered and it simply goes on and on. No one got the message, that's why we are here again. Where is real, sustainable change? It hasn't happened or we wouldn't be here again. 

And our president simply cannot think outside the box that is his ego, our president is unable to empathize with another human being, unable to see that the promise of America is not fulfilled (unless you're rich), is incapable of hearing the anguish of the people in the wake of George Floyd's murder (whose heart is so hardened that Floyd's calling for his Mama doesn't bring tear to their eyes), who talked over Floyd's brother rather than let him cry, let him vent, let him tell the President of the US how broken he was, how angry he was?

The trumpster announces he spoke to the family (an announcement that served his purposes and did nothing for the Floyds), he shows no understanding of the triple threat faced by black men and women in Covid, unemployment and being singled out and aways fearing that they too could be killed. What does this president do? He focuses on the violence, he focuses on the destruction and he chooses to dominate - rather than speak to the nation, rather than try to heal even as he encourages (not name calls) Governors to address both the protestors and those who desire violence - he chooses the words of force, he chooses to dominate and unleash the American military on its own people in a moment of brokenness. 

Action was quickly taken? When was the upgrade to 2nd degree, when were the others charged. Some of us long and pray for the day in America when such action will not have to be taken rather than judging how quick (or not) it was.

 

The trumpster is incapable of uniting us and he has shown this time and again. What citizen could be comfortable with how easily he name called Governors and threaten to use the military rather than even try to understand the people he serves?  What truly religion person could cheer his walk to the Church for a photo-op where he then holds the Christian Holy Book for another photo-op? And now he thanks himself for the growing success of Governors whose states are becoming more peaceful? If they used the Guard, they made that decision because it was theirs to make (the Governor calls the Guard up to serve) for the good of their people.

Our current president is simply incapable, he acts like a dictator in the face of people suffering and he makes America look like a banana republic.

 

 

 

[PaulS]

15 hours ago, JosephM said:

Well Paul, It is extremely difficult from your vantage point to view what is really happening since your input is the mainstream media ( mainline newspapers) whose headlines draw conclusions and state their opinion rather than just research and report facts to the people and allow them to make up their own mind. Scratch social  media which is filled with garbage and lies on both sides.

What vantage point is it that you have determined that my only input is mainstream media?  Because I provided 2 x opinion pieces (1 x Washington Post and 1 x PBS Newshour)?  Do you not think it possible that I am also doing my own research like you and drawing a different conclusion to you?  Do you know which news services I review?  I just thought that was a strange conclusion for you to draw with what I see as you having very little actual knowledge of what I am looking at and reading/seeing/hearing.

It is not an uncommon occurrence for those with political differences to blame the media as 'misrepresenting' what they think is accurate, and vice versa.  It happens all the time here in Australia too.  And just about every political representative that I have heard speak will believe that the 'other side' has been misled or is sticking their head in the sand, etc because they don't agree with them.  Usually this is called healthy political debate, and usually it is a good thing which helps society determine their future direction.  What I see happening, particular in America and to some degree other countries too, is a much more aggressive and threatening division in political opinions presently.  My hope is that the US will choose to come together rather than continue to let themselves be driven apart.

Quote

On the church visit it was just 15 minutes before curfew, the site of the day before where destruction of church property and other property took place. The people were asked to vacate the street 3 times after an all day mostly peaceful protest. People defied the order to start clearing out in preparation for the curfew and agitators in the crowd convinced many to stay in defiance so they used a form of gas to disperse the crowd.  Most all the major newspapers are extremely liberal and biased against Trump and Republicans. You can research to find which ones report all negatives and have him portrayed as Thomas describes. Fox news is slanted somewhat the other way but is more balanced in my opinion. Got to run. Later gator.

Joe, you can't attack people because they're 'almost' breaking the law.  The curfew was not in affect at the time the crowd was attacked.  The church property was not destroyed by anybody in the crowd (as far as anyone knows) and it happened in the middle of the night, not during the day's peaceful protesting.  What sort of a democracy (President) says we stand with peaceful protesters, but if we don't want them there at a particular time of our choosing (and not according to the rules you have set - i.e. 7pm) we will take to them with batons and teargas? I understand well and truly that there are major newspapers that are extremely liberal and biased against Trump and Republicans, but there are also facts that are being ignored here in favor or personal opinion, it seems to me.

[PaulS]

12 hours ago, JosephM said:

Paul,

The report on using the military was out of context from what i heard him say.  He was speaking to the State cities and governors and American people to assure them he would not tolerate anymore looting , killing burning of cities and physical violence and that if their police and other resources available to them couldn't protect its citizens and business from further violence, destroying of property, etc he would invoke an old law we have to use the military to get the job done. As a citizen, in my view he telling them to do their job and protect the people against violent demonstrators who are inciting others to commit crimes.and if not he would intervene. I hope it is not necessary but i support his decision and think the news put a negative slant on what he actually said for political reasons..

Out of what context?  I agree with you that Trump said what you mentioned, but he wasn't offering a service, he wasn't offering assistance to the Governors if they needed it, he wasn't reassuring them that he understood the overwhelming difficulty they were facing and he was there to support them.  No words like that were mentioned, just this puff-piece tough guy stuff about how he was going to be the law and order President and how He will put an end to it all.  It's not a media bias that I am reacting to here, it is my view of how he is behaving as President.  You think it is acceptable for all your reasons, I think it is disappointing and un-Presidential for all my reasons.  We are likely looking at the same media but coming away with different opinions for various reasons.

Do you really think the Governors and states are just letting the rioters and looters burn and pillage for kicks and giggles?  Do you really think they need Trump on their back telling them to 'do their job', as if they are not already trying to?  Do you really think they are 'allowing' the rioters and looters to commit their crimes so they can make Trump look bad?  I very much doubt they are so to me, if I was law enforcement or Governor in those places I'd be thinking - you arrogant p*^@-k, we are doing what we can to stop it but it isn't bloody easy mate!  Offering help and assistance would be more help and encouragement than calling us names and threatening us!  Bring people together, don't keep pushing them apart.

[JosephM]

Paul,

With the exception of Fox news most all the other new agencies  just copy  the first one reporting and repeat the same thing. And yes New York has approximately 40,000 police force and they have National guard that the governor controls and was not used or called in by the New York Mayor in the 7 days of rioting. The New York mayor refused  to use the New York National Guard  and as a result New York lost businesses, lives and billions of dollars of property and potential jobs.  NYC seems to be a strange very liberal city in their response. 

Among other things in NYC ......

https://abc7ny.com/the-trump-administration-border-patrol-sanctuary-cities-like-new-york-and-newark-la-colmena/5961405/

 

Also, it is not uncommon for  the police typically try to clear out people ahead of the curfew so the streets will be clear by curfew time. Most peaceful protesters leave peacefully when asked. Troublemakers stick around and taunt the police. Police  provide them 3 warnings and and state their non-compliance is a violation of law then start to clear the street . A direct order from a law enforcement officer or public safety officer will trump a curfew law.  So those who remained were breaking the law.

 

[thormas]

10 hours ago, PaulS said:

What vantage point is it that you have determined that my only input is mainstream media?  Because I provided 2 x opinion pieces (1 x Washington Post and 1 x PBS Newshour)?  Do you not think it possible that I am also doing my own research like you and drawing a different conclusion to you?  Do you know which news services I review?  I just thought that was a strange conclusion for you to draw with what I see as you having very little actual knowledge of what I am looking at and reading/seeing/hearing.

It is not an uncommon occurrence for those with political differences to blame the media as 'misrepresenting' what they think is accurate, and vice versa.  It happens all the time here in Australia too.  And just about every political representative that I have heard speak will believe that the 'other side' has been misled or is sticking their head in the sand, etc because they don't agree with them.  Usually this is called healthy political debate, and usually it is a good thing which helps society determine their future direction.  What I see happening, particular in America and to some degree other countries too, is a much more aggressive and threatening division in political opinions presently.  My hope is that the US will choose to come together rather than continue to let themselves be driven apart.

Joe, you can't attack people because they're 'almost' breaking the law.  The curfew was not in affect at the time the crowd was attacked.  The church property was not destroyed by anybody in the crowd (as far as anyone knows) and it happened in the middle of the night, not during the day's peaceful protesting.  What sort of a democracy (President) says we stand with peaceful protesters, but if we don't want them there at a particular time of our choosing (and not according to the rules you have set - i.e. 7pm) we will take to them with batons and teargas? I understand well and truly that there are major newspapers that are extremely liberal and biased against Trump and Republicans, but there are also facts that are being ignored here in favor or personal opinion, it seems to me.

Well reasoned and said.

[thormas]

51 minutes ago, JosephM said:

Paul,

With the exception of Fox news most all the other new agencies  just copy  the first one reporting and repeat the same thing. And yes New York has approximately 40,000 police force and they have National guard that the governor controls and was not used or called in by the New York Mayor in the 7 days of rioting. The New York mayor refused  to use the New York National Guard  and as a result New York lost businesses, lives and billions of dollars of property and potential jobs.  NYC seems to be a strange very liberal city in their response. 

....with the exception of Fox News? OMG........more out of the trumpster's playbook except when he gets pissed at them for telling the truth. And there is a difference between the News at Fox and the typical talking heads, like Hannity and the morning crew.

 

Quote

51 minutes ago, JosephM said:

Also, it is not uncommon for  the police typically try to clear out people ahead of the curfew so the streets will be clear by curfew time. Most peaceful protesters leave peacefully when asked. Troublemakers stick around and taunt the police. Police  provide them 3 warnings and and state their non-compliance is a violation of law then start to clear the street . A direct order from a law enforcement officer or public safety officer will trump a curfew law.  So those who remained were breaking the law.

 

Where is it not uncommon? Most peaceful protestors leave peacefully when asked? Ok but it takes time for a crowd of a few hundred, a thousand or more to disperse and professionals know that. The sole reason, the great urgency, for police to move in was the trumpster photo-op: it was about him and there was no care for those citizens of the country. 

This was a peaceful protest and since the curfew never came, you don't know, the trumpster didn't know, they would not disperse, Barr and the troops jumped the gun. Now you bring up boogeymen - troublemakers - never knowing who in that crowd you're talking about or whether they existed that night. 

In the DC incident there was no violation of the law: they were peaceful and there was no curfew broken. They weren't in non-compliance - that is a fact!. There is no trumping the agreed curfew time if the people are peaceful, thus there is no legitimate direct order from law enforcement. It happened because Barr wanted it clear for the impeached one.

 

The rationale/excuses provided by the administration and parroted here are simply embarrassing.

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by thormas

[thormas]

10 hours ago, PaulS said:

Out of what context?  I agree with you that Trump said what you mentioned, but he wasn't offering a service, he wasn't offering assistance to the Governors if they needed it, he wasn't reassuring them that he understood the overwhelming difficulty they were facing and he was there to support them.  No words like that were mentioned, just this puff-piece tough guy stuff about how he was going to be the law and order President and how He will put an end to it all.  It's not a media bias that I am reacting to here, it is my view of how he is behaving as President.  You think it is acceptable for all your reasons, I think it is disappointing and un-Presidential for all my reasons.  We are likely looking at the same media but coming away with different opinions for various reasons.

Do you really think the Governors and states are just letting the rioters and looters burn and pillage for kicks and giggles?  Do you really think they need Trump on their back telling them to 'do their job', as if they are not already trying to?  Do you really think they are 'allowing' the rioters and looters to commit their crimes so they can make Trump look bad?  I very much doubt they are so to me, if I was law enforcement or Governor in those places I'd be thinking - you arrogant p*^@-k, we are doing what we can to stop it but it isn't bloody easy mate!  Offering help and assistance would be more help and encouragement than calling us names and threatening us!  Bring people together, don't keep pushing them apart.

Again, well reasoned.

Even those who live in other countries see more clearly than some in the USA.