PaulS Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 I think Pelosi did herself and the Democrats a disservice by tearing up that address. I expect it will resonate with hardcore Dem voters but I suspect swinging voters will see it as a political stunt that looked frankly, a bit immature. Yes, once again Trump was a rude pig ignoring her like that. But I suspect that was his intention all along - push her buttons until she cracks, and she did. I don't blame her, but I think it was a political mistake and politics is all that matters in this situation. Nope, it's a 3 for Nancy from me on this matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 As Pelosi said it was all lies and was the most appropriate response. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted February 6, 2020 Author Share Posted February 6, 2020 5 hours ago, PaulS said: I think Pelosi did herself and the Democrats a disservice by tearing up that address. I expect it will resonate with hardcore Dem voters but I suspect swinging voters will see it as a political stunt that looked frankly, a bit immature. Yes, once again Trump was a rude pig ignoring her like that. But I suspect that was his intention all along - push her buttons until she cracks, and she did. I don't blame her, but I think it was a political mistake and politics is all that matters in this situation. Nope, it's a 3 for Nancy from me on this matter. I agree she did a disservice to her party with that action on national TV. I believe if you look at the video when he handed the speech to them, as is customary, he didn't shake either her hand or Mike Pence, his vice president's hand. If he shook Mike's hand and not hers that might be considered rude. Also do you expect him to shake a persons hand that just impeached you, that hates your guts, and now has vowed to continue investigating and try to impeach him again? Democrats have been investigating and threatening to impeach him from the moment he was elected. Have faith in the American people and if they don't want 4 more years of him they won't vote for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 Pelosi reached out her hand. Are Trump supporters turning the tradition argument on and off at will. The American people did not vote him … the Electoral college did. Trump (and his supporters) should remember he represents not just his base, but the vast majority of people who did not vote for him too. Over 74% of the population did not vote for him (note over 73% of the population did not vote for Hillary either). Some humility would be in order. Pelosi tried to be the bigger man, but sadly failed. Trump shows no respect, to people or the institution. And just compare Trump's tweets about Pelosi to hers about Trump … if you want to play the hate game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 We do expect a hand shake. As mentioned, Pelosi was willing, but Trump can't get over himself. They are not there for themselves, they are the representatives of the citizens and there only to serve = well except the trumpster, always there, always was, always will be only for himself. Trump is an amazing whiner for a grown man, everybody out to get him while he is so innocent (hello!). If he were a Christian I would expect him to come on stage with a cross especially since he has already said he is 'the chosen one.' And as he is such a non-spiritual, non-religious man, he can't comprehend that a Romney would act out of faith in and commitment to God or that Pelosi would actually pray for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Romney a man for all seasons, the trumpster a man for ..............well, himself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted February 7, 2020 Author Share Posted February 7, 2020 8 hours ago, romansh said: (snip) The American people did not vote him … the Electoral college did. Trump (and his supporters) should remember he represents not just his base, but the vast majority of people who did not vote for him too. Over 74% of the population did not vote for him (note over 73% of the population did not vote for Hillary either). Some humility would be in order. (snip) The American people did elect him. The electoral college is called for in the Constitution of this Republic because the framers of our Republic wanted this extra layer, rather than just providing for the direct election of the president as in pure democracies. Most of the nation’s founders were actually rather afraid of democracy. James Madison worried about what he called “factions,” which he defined as groups of citizens who have a common interest in some proposal that would either violate the rights of other citizens or would harm the nation as a whole. the Electoral College does make it possible for a candidate to win the popular vote and still not become president. But that is less a product of the Electoral College (a process, not a place) and more a product of the way states apportion electors. In every state but Maine and Nebraska, electors are awarded on a winner-take-all basis. So if a candidate wins a state by even a narrow margin, he or she wins all of the state’s electoral votes. This helps insure that a larger sections of states is treated more fairly. ie Red went to Trump by popular vote - Blue to Hillary Many people might think we are a democracy here but that is not accurate. We are a Republic. So far, a very successful Republic and while not perfect and with its problems it works well enough that people keep coming and most here still think its the greatest country in the world to live in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Unlike a number of my fellow Dems (and others) I have no problem with the electoral college and think a change, if considered at all, should be done very, very carefully. However the reality is that we get the government we deserve: if people want a change, they have to get out and actually vote, if not, they should stop complaining. Of course, this means that if the 'other side' if any side, is truly American they should, we should all be for as broad an electoral as possible. Snipping away at voter eligibility or the nonsense of clogging up phone line in Iowa (if true) is simply unAmerican - as is, under any and all circumstances, looking to a foreign power or players to help win an election. Having said that I agree that "Trump (and his supporters) - and everybody else in the USA -should remember he represents not just his base" but us all. Sadly, Trump doesn't get this as he doesn't get so much more., Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted February 7, 2020 Author Share Posted February 7, 2020 1 hour ago, thormas said: Unlike a number of my fellow Dems (and others) I have no problem with the electoral college and think a change, if considered at all, should be done very, very carefully. However the reality is that we get the government we deserve: if people want a change, they have to get out and actually vote, if not, they should stop complaining. Of course, this means that if the 'other side' if any side, is truly American they should, we should all be for as broad an electoral as possible.(snip) I like that part Thomas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, thormas said: Snipping away at voter eligibility or the nonsense of clogging up phone line in Iowa (if true) is simply unAmerican - as is, under any and all circumstances, looking to a foreign power or players to help win an election. Joseph, I hope you like and agree with this part too. Edited February 7, 2020 by thormas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 "....as broad an electoral as possible" should have been as broad an electorate as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 13 hours ago, JosephM said: Many people might think we are a democracy here but that is not accurate. We are a Republic. Exactly … 5 million votes effectively were ignored. This is true elsewhere too. Even in Canada, rural votes carry more "weight". But a select few do not ultimately decide what the will of the people will be from an electoral procedure point of view. But that does not excuse President Trump, Republicans and Trump's supporters for ignoring the other 70 odd percent of the population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Were they ignored or is that simply how our system works? And the trumpster is never excused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 4 minutes ago, thormas said: Were they ignored or is that simply how our system works? While precedent might not be on the side of the 5 million, were the electoral college obligated to vote the way they did? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 It is our system. No one was ignored, some, too many, didn't bother to vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 40 minutes ago, thormas said: It is our system. No one was ignored, some, too many, didn't bother to vote. You did not answer my question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) Just ignoring the seven outliers for the moment there were 531 that voted for either Trump or Clinton Ignoring the outliers for the moment On 46% of the vote, Trump got 57% of the electoral college and Clinton on 48% of the vote got 43% of the college. What is stopping the college voting in a way that represents their electorate, rather than ignoring the opposition in their own electoral state boundaries? Edited February 7, 2020 by romansh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) I did answer and 5M were not ignored - we have the popular vote and the electoral college in the USA - that is, as I said, our system. Edited February 7, 2020 by thormas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 I did ask, does the electoral college have to ignore the will of the people and follow precedent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) The electoral college is working as designed. If it were to be changed that would have to be an amendment and it would have to be very, very carefully considered. That's all I've got. Edited February 7, 2020 by thormas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted February 8, 2020 Author Share Posted February 8, 2020 5 hours ago, romansh said: I did ask, does the electoral college have to ignore the will of the people and follow precedent. With the exception of a couple states the electorate must cast their votes per the majority of people in each state. The electoral college is not a place , it is a layer/ process Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 The only concern some people have is that although, as said above, the college in most states, reflects the popular vote of that state, it does not always reflect the overall, national popular vote. But it works as designed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, JosephM said: With the exception of a couple states the electorate must cast their votes per the majority of people in each state. The electoral college is not a place , it is a layer/ process OK if I understand it correctly California Electors by law must cast all 55 votes in favour of Democrats if the Democrats win the popular vote in California? Or is this just precedent? from wiki Even though the aggregate national popular vote is calculated by state officials, media organizations, and the Federal Election Commission, the people only indirectly elect the president, as the national popular vote is not the basis for electing the president Edited February 8, 2020 by romansh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 A vote for the presidential candidate is a vote for his/her electors and they are 'committed' to that candidate/party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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