JosephM

Rom, I just did a forum search and looked through a few pages of threads that turned up to find it. Search can be a bit tricky to use on this IPB board. I can merge the threads but no harm is done to start this different one. Those were old threads and people may now respond differently. I only listed them in case anyone is interested in past history of the discussion. A new one might yield some newer insights so type away your thoughts on free will, what it means to you and why. I am interested in your perspective. Mine has most probably changed some over time. Joseph

Here are a couple reference threads one can look through for background but a new discussion here is just fine since we have different people than we had previously. I will be traveling back to KY from FL tomorrow so i will not be able to participate for a day or so. Enjoy. Joseph Free Will http://tcpc.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/1958-free-will/?hl=%2Bfree+%2Bchoice#entry22929 and Free Choice http://tcpc.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/1174-free-choice/#entry11873

Choice and free choice or free will are indeed interesting topics to discuss and that we have discussed here before. It would be best done in another thread so not to get so far off the topic of this thread. It can be a real eye opener for those open to such a discussion. It also seems to me a most difficult topic to accept a different understanding than one might previously hold because it can expose what some call ego or self which seems to produce much internal resistance. But anyone is welcome to start a new thread if interested. JosephM (as Moderator)

Rom, While irrational, unreasonable and self-centered indeed may be constructs of the brain and society and you may feel there is nothing to forgive as i also see at a 'deeper level' , in my view, for many, forgiveness is a necessary step in the evolution of their consciousness. Where there is 'ought' against another because of self judgement, it seems to me a beneficial approach to take (forgiveness that is), at least until one ceases constant measuring and judging of the other and can 'see' reality more clearly. Joseph Personally i hold Mother Teresa in high regard because she usually said very little and practiced what she preached.

Matteo, I would have to ask you .... What can you do to change that? (people talking past one another) What good does worrying do or being "very depressed" except to bring on suffering of a sort ? It seems to me that it is good to ask oneself.... What can i do about this thing and if there is something wise that we know to do then do it and be content .... and if not then remind ourself that there are things that are not in our power to change and be thankful we know the difference between those we can change and those things we can't. Just a consideration to think about, Joseph

Also i see a lot of tolerant and open-minded people on this forum and elsewhere like UU churches. Most of them seem to me to see no need to push their beliefs on others such as some fundamentalists like Pat Robertson and others do. Joseph

Matteo, In my view, the conversation doesn't "NEED" to take place on a larger more relevant scale as if something is wrong or deficient in Reality at the present. The conversation is just fine for now. It seems to me. when people are ready it happens. For now people have what they want. One can't really force that change you speak of. You can work toward inner change on yourself and it will influence others but you can't change the other. Change happens when the time is ripe and the individual is ready. At least that is the way i see it. Joseph

Hi Roy, I agree there is very little difference in some of the PC Churches and the Unitarian Church. They are both pluralistic and relatively dogma free. Emphasis is more on the journey and fellowship than any doctrine. Joseph

Matteo, I think that conversation is exactly what we have here on this forum.

It seems to me you hit the nail on the head. From an intellectual standpoint we cannot really "know" these things. We can think we do but emptiness knows better. Experience isn't the same as word concepts. Both certainty and doubt is of the carnal mind. Without "self" there seems to me to be no need for either. Joseph

Greetings Steve, I think Christianity speaks , both in Jesus metaphors (of dieing and being born again and in a seed dieing to bring forth the new and of the differences between flesh and spirit) and in Paul's writings of the self as a "nature" a "carnal nature" that in a sense is "enmity against God" or our true nature (spirit). Not that God has any real enemies! That "creature" as Paul speaks must die or be extinguished daily so that God might be all in all (or One Spirit come alive). That self or nature so to speak is difficult to accurately describe in words but to me not so difficult to see within what we consider our "self". To me, the things that are fleshly and temporal, i see ending somewhere in time, whether in this life or the next or the nexr etc. if there is one, who can prove for certain to another? To empty self, i believe in Christianity is to recognize this nature within us all and by recognizing and observing it without judgement, we see it for the illusion (temporal nature) it is. We are then transformed by a renewing of mind that comes from the ever-present observing Spirit within or without, (who can say) not by work but by the grace that may appear to others as work. (But how can it be by work as there is found no self doing the work.) It seems to me we make difficult that which is in essence simple and requires only simple non-judgmental observation to reveal itself. This of course to me involves more of being an observer rather than a follower of thoughts and incessant thinking. Just some thoughts for consideration, Joseph

Derek, I am not closed to being in a relationship with "God" but of course not with the traditional definition. One could say i am in relationship with "Reality" or "Creation" and i would not object. From a human standpoint (the creature, the created), one might also say we are separate and i also would not object yet i would not also object to one who says we are One with God. To me, that which is created gets its essence from that which is unmanifested and appears as separate yet cannot be. It is a conundrum. Words are, as you know, always lacking when it comes to the formless. Joseph PS. It seems to me, the word "holiness", separates where on a deeper level there is no separation to be found. All names given to things seem to me to do the same.

Derek, In a biblical sense, i see the word "holiness" is often defined as .... an idea of greatness. One of the meanings of holiness is the idea of being "set apart" or in a class by itself or in the case of God in a class by Himself. When the Bible speaks of holy objects or holy people or holy time, it refers to things that have been set apart, consecrated, or made different by the touch of God upon them. In essence the nearness of the divine making the ordinary extraordinary or uncommon. A second aspect of the "holiness" of God is the idea of purity. God as goodness. God always acting in a righteous manner because of that purity. That's how i understand the traditional meaning of the "holiness" of God. Most of that is based on (in Christianity) as seeing God as a separate "Supreme being" or deity in a theistic way. Having said all this, i do not share that traditional Christian view or understanding of the "holiness" of God. I see God as neither separate from creation nor as limited to any concept of our idea of purity or goodness. Just my own view for what its worth, Joseph

Our IPB forum has been updated to the latest revision of software. Please advise if you encounter any problems generated by the new revision. It was suppose to fix and it did an edit problem we were having. Thanks for your cooperation , Joseph

Matteo, Your still double posting... see above 2 posts Joseph

Matteo said..... "Buddha said that women could not attain enlightenment. " Matteo, That is news to me. Please provide Buddhist scriptural reference to this statement if you can. Joseph

Bill, Your last 2 critical posts were uncalled for. You have visited us and shared with us the same negative words of your opinion on PC many times using the same and other alias in times past. As a member i am disappointed with your repeated continued negative comments concerning PC. Will there ever be an end to it? What purpose do you hope to serve with these type of posts here? No answer expected as these are rhetorical questions. As a PC, i and i am certain others, do unite with others (whether PC, Christian or not) in feeding the poor, giving to the homeless, supporting those less fortunate and doing some small part for the environment. Many members here , whether they identify as PC or not.and whether they verbally credit it to PC or not is not important as long as they are a positive force for good. As administrator, i remind you , you have been previously warned and placed on approval of posts for continuing the same repeated negative comments concerning PC. Repeating them serves no useful purpose for this community. If it has nothing to offer constructive, why do you keep returning with your critical remarks? I do not expect another repeat performance like this one from you again. Otherwise it will be your last post on this forum. JosephM (as Admin)

Welcome Matteo, Thanks for the interesting introduction.. I share many beliefs with you in that i also find much commonality in different religions. Only the words seem to change but inspiration and a deeper understanding seems to surface when each is diligently studied or practiced. Happy to have you among us and hopefully we will have many challenging and insightful discussions. Again welcome, Joseph

Hi matteoam, I have been reading your posts with interest and just wanted to say that it is customary here and expected that new members first introduce themselves in the watercooler area, REF NEW MEMBERS ATTENTION NOTICE HERE One of our area moderators (tariki) suggested that to you in the picking and choosing thread.quite a number of posts ago. Its a good opportunity to let others know a little bit about your background and perhaps what you hope to accomplish by your participation in this community. Thanks in advance for your cooperation and looking forward to your further topic insights and and mutual sharing with others here, JosephM (as Admin)

matteoam said directly above.... Perhaps you might try using the search function on this site for such words as forgiveness, compassion, etc. as i do not share that perception and have been reading the forum board for more than 7 years. Granted, we have quite a few transient people who come here and are quite vocal about their past treatment and disdain for many fundamentals but over time i believe those old wounds heal and are replaced by forgiveness, compassion and understanding. I think your first impression or perception here is understandable but i think you will come to see there are many loving , forgiving and compassionate people who remain and grow here over time. We do put up with a certain amount of venting here as that is a natural and sometimes necessary step in the healing process for PC'ers which disappears with time and is usually replaced by more appetizing fruits if you know what i mean.. At least that is my take on things, Joseph

Personally i do not sense that most PC's have an axe to grind. Perhaps it is true at first during the transition from fundamentalism while there is still lingering emotional pain from rejection from their past peers. After all, progression is not an instant thing. However, i find that those who continue on their journey, whether by PC or by a different self label, shed that anger and replace it with compassion, understanding and love for those still trapped. PC, as you know is not dogmatic. Anyone who over time refuses to shed their anger for others will in my view not survive with the progressive label. Joseph

Can be found by clicking Here. or from main forum page toward the bottom. Joseph

Welcome Erik, I see you bring quite a broad spectrum of knowledge concerning Christianity and other religions with you. I am looking forward to your sharing of your insight and perceptions with members of this community. Again welcome, Joseph

Looks like you already found the proper area under resources and links . If anyone is interested in discussing or commenting on the information/essays on your site, they can do it here. Joseph

Steve, I share and relate to your experience. Gratitude and the joy of being is to me is a deep experience of Life and existence itself. Joseph