JosephM

While experience and genetic influence contribute to what i value and to what degree, i do not know exactly how i decide.

Rom asks.. Just for your amusement.... That unseen part of me that is the same in you and all that is and is responsible for that which APPEARS as cause and effect and the unfolding of the universe but in reality is beyond all such concepts and scripts making up the drama of life.. Your mind is consciousness which has put on limitations. Beyond that limitation there is no cause, only happenings. Joseph

Dutch, Yes and that when one comes from the position that behavior is based truly on "free will" (without limitation or constraint) there is, in my view, a propensity to use less of those virtues to assimilate wiser solutions. Joseph

Dutch, Avoiding the language of "free will" does not avoid moral responsibility. As i have said, it is societies function to set them and i concur with that function even though i may not be in agreement with a particular moral position of society. The point is, in my view, that the language and understanding of choice and consequences enters the equation from a standpoint of consciousness that is devoid of anger, arbitrary blame and pride and closer to acceptance, reason and love from which better solutions to our problems can be found. That , i believe is what we have to gain from such an understanding of the illusory nature of such a concept as "free will". In summary, when we assume we have truly "free will" (choice without limitations or constraints) we draw that "arbitrary boundary" ( i believe Rom has mentioned) and enter into what i perceive as a separation from Truth instead of bringing us to wiser solutions through a more peaceful level of consciousness. Anyway those are my thoughts on your comment, Joseph PS I think the spirit of what i am saying was recorded in Paul speaking to the Corinthians... "For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?"

Dutch, I make a distinction because choice is just an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.) whereas "free will" is the ability of agents to make choices unconstrained (not restricted or limited). (You yourself used the words "Hence we have freewill, however limited." in post 46 ) While morality is as you say "about right and wrong as seen through societies eyes" and we can have guidelines and systems set in place to apply consequences, who can really put their finger on the real cause. We can apply the consequences as we see fit (and in society we should) but to deem responsibility because of an act of "free will" is, in my view, without knowledge. What makes the violator make different choices than me? Is it "free will" ? I think not since choice is constrained by factors both seen and unseen. Just clarifying my thoughts concerning your comments, Joseph

I know you addressed the question to Rom but i would like to also comment ... You ask ... Is there any other approach that works? I think yes. Morals are determined by society as i believe you would agree as necessary. That doesn't make them 'right' or 'wrong' except in the eyes of the then existing society. So, society assigns consequences for actions. However, that does not require assigning punishment as if "free will" were really in effect.by the violator of societies moral standard. Actions simply have societal consequences, That is the only judgement required and it to me does not conclude the necessity to infer a "free will" decision. Only choice is necessary.that we be held accountable and that is limited in my view by a myriad of things that to me make it somewhat less than free.. Joseph

Hi Larry, To me, it was necessary to read to determine what it was. Understanding what it really is seems to me to make it beneficial reading for both understanding and inspiration and to relate to others who may not yet see it the same as i. It was the inspiration of some of the writings that led me to Christ and the idea that we could have the direct communications that you mention. (1st John 2:27 comes to mind) While i don't read it much anymore i think it still contains enough truth or pointers in its pages to benefit those on a journey that are ready to move on to more. Just my own view, Joseph

Rom, Have you always believed as you do now? If yes, fine. If not, did your past beliefs prevent you from exploration of reality? If yes, then was it not a necessary step in your unfolding? Joseph

No it doesn't in my view. As far as those who see choice as free will missing out on an exploration of our reality.... perhaps that is a dubious assumption?

Rom, Good for Kant and James. Myself, i think that neither kant nor James has a corner on the definition and while i, as you may know, from past posts do not 'see' such a concept as 'free will" being truly "free" , i have no objection to the use of the words as defined by others within an understanding of what they mean and where they are coming from. Peace, Joseph

Curiosity question for everyone..... I don't think there will be any wrong answers since the question is directed to YOUR opinion or YOUR perception of God which only YOU can express. If you are reluctant to express any belief in the word God then what do you call what you believe is the source of what you experience as reality? Thanks in advance for your responses that will no doubt be food to ponder. Joseph

Dutch said... Good questions Dutch, I cannot say. I can only suppose they are coextensive with that beyond I also suppose that as far as we can see what is now has an influence but undetermined future. Yet, on a deep level, i count the future as hypothetical with no real existence in reality. Joseph

Perhaps 'something new' comes from 'free will' or choice but the minor contentions seems to me to be just how 'free' or limited that which we identify as 'my' will/choice really is. From the perspective of the whole is it free enough to be labeled individual 'free will'? Most great insights for the 'new' or change, in my experience, come from beyond what seems to be 'me' or my own self (although i would like to take credit ). While it seems to me the new does comes out of the process of evolution that process seems to me to be beyond the individual will negating it to me to be truly free. Or perhaps Not ? How can i say for certain? Joseph PS Perhaps, in my view, 'free will' could be best defined as ..... Not free from influences, but free to make intelligent choices. (Peter Voss)

Paul, In my view, I think, your post above shows an understanding of where we are coming from. (well at least me...don't want to speak for Rom and Soma) Dutch, It seems to me your perception is in agreement and i certainly would not debate with you the way you have used 'free will' as you do qualify it as "however limited". Joseph PS Refreshing as always to hear your perspective.

Larry, I like your 'take' on things. Joseph

Thanks for sharing your story and thoughts Daniel. Spong is very popular here and respected for his contributions to the progressive movement. Many of us, as you have, have 'made the rounds' and come full circle. We have a number of members here that are strong in Judiasm. Username --- "Norm" comes to mind and he has many interesting and enlightening posts to his credit within the threads of this forum. There are numerous threads on the forum here that compare the commonalities or similarities between Christianity and Buddhism , Taoism and other religions that only come to light when one has studied them closely for oneself. Again thanks for the interesting post and your theological perceptions. Peace, Joseph

Welcome Daniel, Spent some time in the high desert probably not far from you (Victorville, CA) while in the service. Hope you feel less isolated as you share with others on this forum. Again welcome, Joseph

Some enlightening questions we can ask ourselves..... What makes me different from the other? If it is choice,.. Then why did i make a different choice than the other? If my choices makes me 'better' than the other, Who or what is responsible for me making 'better' choices that i should boast or think i am 'better' than the other as if it were by my own power rather than by grace. Just musing, Joseph

Paul, As a species we make decisions about what is acceptable behavior and what is not. That is the role of society. It seems to me, this is necessary and need not be judged as good or bad or upset us. We can simply say it is unacceptable to society as a whole and choose a way to protect ourselves from it whether through punishment, rehabilitation, or whatever means we have. It seems to me that getting upset and angry about it and applying condemning or judgement labels does nothing constructive in approaching societal solutions. We can simply take action (be an activist or not) out of reason and love. To me, the pedophile is an expression of life that has been reached through circumstances and choices not often readily apparent. It just as likely could have been 'me'. The capacity for all that you may see or consider as 'evil', i see in 'me'. All expressions of life are actions and all actions have consequences not only from society but as a result of the action itself. I 'see' judgement is sure even without my labeling or society taking action ( of course i agree it is necessary and in the best interest of society to do so). To me condemning is merely an act of pride. Certainly the role of society is to determine what benefits and what harms. In my opinion, that does not make it good or bad. Society is merely evolving and history shows even its decisions are often corrupt or two-sided. Slavery was once thought 'good' (at least for the owner), now it is thought 'bad'. To the whole, i see it as neither....just unacceptable or not wise at this point in our unfolding evolution. Joseph PS Working from Understanding and Compassion rather than anger or upset does not negate taking action to protect society from perceived harm. To me, Condemnation itself lays blame and accusation where we have very little knowledge. I think we can still act intelligently to remedy societies problems outside the bounds of hate and individual blame.

Greetings Larry, Thanks so much for such an interesting and well worded introduction that i, and i would hope many others who come here, can relate to May your story/testimony continue to be a blessing to others on their journey and may you equally be blessed in your personal journey by others here. Again welcome, Joseph

Greetings Larry, Welcome to the forum. Good point. It seems each according to his/her role in this drama we call life. Joseph PS Perhaps you might be so kind to post a short introduction thread as is customary HERE.

Paul, It seems to me that your statement above is true. It is somewhat irrelevant whether we say our will is free or not.. Yet, perhaps, one must keep in mind that our ways will change over time because each consequence of actions contributes in some way to modify or influence future choices and actions. Once i was sitting in contemplative thought and had a moment of 'seeing' or epiphany as some might say. And from that i wrote this which i am certain i have said here before. There are those who are here to make war and are fighters. There are those who will kill and those to be killed. There are farmers who live to make food. There are politicians who make politics and financiers who make money. There are those who live off their labor and those who live off of others. There are those who are hungry and those who are full. There are those who play games and those who are serious. There are those who save the trees and earth; there are those who save the animals. There are those that take and those who give. There are those who speak and those who are silent. There are leaders and flocks; there are priests and the sage. Each according to his appointment it seems. A most wonderful dance is seen of the universe, with nary a dust speck out of place. What more can I say of these things seen; who source is not readily apparent. Existence itself will speak of the truth as I sit dumbfounded in awe. Joseph PS I believe Jesus is recorded saying "And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered" While i am not speaking for or against predestination i am saying that perhaps there seems to me to be an inevitability that over time arrives from actions and consequences which perhaps takes a "fullness of times.".

Paul, Whether we have free will or not does not change my actions. My perception is that most of us including me live our life AS IF we have free will and make free choices yet I do not 'see' our choices as being truly free of constraints. My perception is simply that we have a will and make choices and "reap what we sow" or as some might say "our choices have consequences". Joseph

Paul, By that definition it certainly seems we have free will. While i acknowledge we have a will and make choices the question in my mind is just how free from the constraint of necessity or fate is it? That is a question that philosophers and laymen alike have debated for thousands of years. Read this interesting article by the scientific American. Is free will an illusion? Joseph

I would say at the deepest level, we are one with the universe. Also that 'everything is as it is' and add AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME. "Should be" to me insinuates a judgment on my part and denies reality so i would personally refrain from that word. To me , all those things are part of the evolution of mankind on his/her journey to the highest form of consciousness . The one end contains base things such as shame, guilt, apathy, grief and fear and progresses through desire , anger, and pride which sets the stage for courage, neutrality,, and acceptance leading to reason. This leads to Love, then peace then joy and finally enlightenment. The universe being neither inherently good or bad except in the eye of the beholder seems to me to be unfolding in this manner. They are to me, indeed a product of the evolution of consciousness and the myriad of choices that entails. On the contrary, while apathy, fear and the like may dictate such a response....... to me, courage, reason and Love themselves insist we get involved. Joseph