JosephM

I would agree with what Steve has said above. Also with E who expressed the human need to believe in something. The start of a path for me, but perhaps not everyone required a belief system. Today i have no such system per se and can say as PaulS has above , i no longer feel the need for one.and am okay with that. Being human and having a strong belief system brought me into a web of judgement and condemnation and guilt. It contributed to me thinking in 'black and white terms' and set me up with laws that were enivitable for me to break. It also brought me among peers who were loving as long as we all retained the same views/beliefs but no longer were interested or displayed that love when my views/beliefs changed . While painful, all of this was necessary to bring me to this moment.. Now, even if someone asks me if i believe in God (to me, not the traditional definition but more as the Oneness and Unity of all life) it no longers requires belief or even an answer. Why? Because it is a subtle, everpresent reality in this life that now requires none, It is to me the same as asking you ... Are you conscious of this writing you are reading? But first it was necessary for a belief system to take me down so guilt and condemnation could be seen for what it was and how it was separating me from that subtle presence. HERE is a short personal true story/testimony on condemnation of how i found freedom from that which apparently separated me from such a freedom. And as LindaS has alluded to above in her post... in effect it is all about Love. (not conditional or as often mistaken for deire) Joseph

Welcome satchbee, So glad you took the time to share a bit with us. Leaving the organized church system is indeed a painful experience for most of us. I was raised Roman Catholic. I think you are correct in thinking that if your friends are true friends they will not abandon you. May your journey be fruitful and supply you with the true peace you are seeking. love in Christ, Joseph

Greetings Mike, I'm certain uou will find this community friendly and respectful to your views. We are all on this individual journey and each at different stages. I find we can all learn and better understand each other by sharing and questioning without holding too strongly to our own assumptions. i think we learn most from our own experiences and also from the experiences of others that have come to similiar conclusions as you have expressed. Uncertainty is not a bad thing here and sometimes admitting we don't know seems like the door that opens us to even greater truth. Looking forward to your participation and personal perspectives concerning threads here. Also feel free to start any topic that is of interest to you.after reviewing some of our ettiquette and individual forum rules. Again welcome, Joseph

E, Joe is fine if you prefer. Your understanding is fine with me. Excluding ones human mind's personal identity from their true self is indeed a difficult pill to swallow. It would be a death of sorts.wouldn't it? In my view, from a true self perspective, there is no subject and object so we could say for now they are both (true self and the mind's perceived self) one and the same even though the one is temporal and will die somewhere in time. The concept of “dying to self” is found throughout the entire New Testament. Many say it expresses the true essence of the Christian life, in which we take up our cross and follow Christ. etc etc etc Paul said "I die daily" To what did he die? To his old identity self founded in the flesh (ego)? Why? So that other might see only Christ in him? We identify with the flesh (body and mind) yet it seems apparent from observing those who age and pass away that this present identity of both body and mind are affected. What does that leave? Obviously something other or greater than this identity. I can't say what, but if any seem contentious with i have said i would not debate the issue not only because i also see it as a hard saying but what can i say of things that cannot be said. It seems to me it is a lifelong(s) and gradual process.for most all. Just musing, Joseph

I personally don't think so. In my experience, it can not be made into an image or accurately conceptualized. It can only be experienced and then words and symbols for the most part fail. However, one can use abstract words like the formless I, Pure awareness, the unconditioned, the substrate of being or poetry, stories , myths or analogies to point to it. Perhaps it is easier to say what the true self is not.than what it is. I'm being vague because I can't say. Joseph

Hi E, I think Tolle is saying that the real you is more the observer of the mind or more accurately the one who is aware of the mind and its mental positions. Where ego comes into play is when the mind unobserved is left to its own conditioned mental positions (whether negative or positive) as if it is you. Tolle would call it unconsciousness or acting out our conditioning and in my experience, most of us walk around in that state most often. The body and mind , in my view, are tools to be used and not the real you beyond the temporal.. They (body and mind) are rather for the most of us the fassade or face we put on and in my experience mistake for who we are when they are allowed to take a separate idenity (ego) of their own which happens when we identify with them rather than the one who is aware of them. Things are indeed well here. Thanks for the well wishes, Hope you are feeling better tomorrow. Joseph PS. As you mention, the word ego has multiple ways it is used or understood. I like this from ... Deepak Chopra, M.D. "The ego is our self-image, not our true self. It is characterized by labels, masks, images, and judgments. The true self is the field of possibilities, creativity, intentions, and power. We can go beyond the ego through self awareness - awareness of our thoughts, feelings, behaviors, and speech. "

Do you need to have a religious belief system? If so, Why? If not , Why? Joseph

1. Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. 2. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. 3. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. 4. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. 5. Do not believe in traditions simply because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." Joseph

E, I have no trouble believing it because i was also once blinded and perhaps still am in some areas. Even Jesus is recorded saying "Forgive them father for they do not know what they are doing" As Rom has said , we make choices, but how free are those choices? (especially if we do not know what we are really doing) Every choice i have made in life i made under the limitations that were present at the time. In my experience, we are blinded by our strong beliefs and opinions until some stimulus happens that breaks us through that barrier. Or as Jesus is recorded saying in effect .... because you say you see you cannot see....if you were blind, then would you see. I have found that as we discover or uncover that which is false, that which is true surfaces of its own accord with no credit to myself. In essence concerning choices, in my view of things, people could not have chosen otherwise than they have in the past. To think differently is in my view hypothetical, with no existence in reality. The present however always has the potential for change based on past experiences and present stimulus. On your second part of your response, you are close enough to what i meant. It seems to me it is about connection. Truth is always present like the Sun whether we see it or whether it is hidden by clouds (obscuring obstacles... like strong opinions and beliefs and false assumptions). In my view, it is abstract and beyond concepts. Joseph PS In my personal experience, just having a feeling about something cannot always be trusted to discern what is true

E, It hasn't been down when i have checked . Been on multiple times today. We do have a hosting service and it is possible it went down without my knowledge for a short period. Usually it will give you a message indicating it is down at the moment, account is suspended or a page not available error. Joseph

Many fundamentalists may think they have the truth but you and i may see that as a dysfunction or lie. If they are trapped in that dysfunction (or blinded by prexisting beliefs) where is their current free choice to choose what we may think we see more clearly.. How is their choice free to make if they can't make it because they are blinded. Truth as a concept also seems very vague to me. Perhaps what appears to us is not at all what it seemed to be in the past. As we learn more what was once true to us may no longer be true and even that 'new found truth' or assumption on our part may prove to be false as we discover even more. Perhaps Truth is more a state of being than any thing that can be conceptualized as truth. Perhaps that is why Jesus is recorded referring to the term "I AM" as the Truth rather than a concept? Just musing, Joseph

E, While i would agree that these are dysfunctional ideas and concepts........ i am of the persuasion that they are a natural part of our evolution of consciousness and even necessary. In the scheme of things i would say it could not be otherwise. I would not be too emotionally moved ..... either God, Reality, Being, The Universes, whatever Name you want to use has an order or not. As Paul in the New Testament writes to the Ephesians. "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times, he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in him: " (my emphasis on all) Joseph PS If there be such a thing as a Master Will or Order..... it will certainly be accomplished in this dramatic dance. But this is your introduction thread so if any would disagree here i withdraw my comments. So glad you are taking an active role in this forum.

E, Since you are somewhat familiar with Tolle.....heres what he says... "The ego doesn't know that the mind and mental positions have nothing to do with who you are because the ego is the unobserved mind itself" Essentially to me, the mind is a tool and when you let go of identification with your mind through observation, who you are beyond the mind then emerges by itself. The substrate that emerges is beyond any words and symbols and while we attempt to define that experience in words and symbols, it can only point to THAT. Just some thoughts concerning this thread, Joseph

E, I also use Chrome instead of explorer and copy and paste seem to work well from all of my document programs though i usually don't use them very frequently to post here. Drafts are saved automatically in the reply window and can be edited until ready to post. In fact I exited my browser , came back to this thread, clicked in the reply field and and chose to restore saved content before adding this sentence . Joseph

E, Here is an educational paper on "Sacrifices in Ancient Cultures" you might find interesting. ---> HERE Joseph

Greeting Elen and welcome to the forum. It seems to me the understanding you expressed in the above post is common among members here. Even though the church may teach differently, as you, i believe the earliest Christians had little if any access to written texts that now appear as the New Testament. Progressive Christianity to me is not about doctrines and rituals but more of a journey and as you say something "even more powerful - an enlightening, mind opening, transcending experience" . When we strip all the programming and teaching falsehoods of the Christian church system that have been propagated over the years by using our logic, reason and study, we make room for a genuine experience and a clearer understanding of why such interpretations have transpired that only mask the real thing. Again welcome and i look forward to your input and sharing , Joseph

Chuck, It is a certainty to me that you are not alone in this feeling of "lost". It seems to me Peace is not found by avoiding or opposing whatever life brings. It is also not found in comparing the present moment to the past or some desire for the future.To me it is found more in acceptance of whatever life puts before you in this moment and then working from that place of peace that acceptance brings to bring about change. While that may sound a bit paradoxical, working from the spirit of acceptance of a situation slays negativity, internal battles and provides a place of insight within to move forward with life. Just some thoughts on your post, Joseph

For anyone interested. The DEBATE IS HERE.

's are always a good idea or helpful to clarify a statement as a joke. But regardless, no harm done.

Apollo, Thanks for joining us here and welcome to the community. A community where you are free to express your views here and join in discussions without antagonism. May we all listen, learn and share together in peace and respect for one another as individuals on a journey. Joseph

Linda, Greetings and welcome to the forum. My story is not all that different from yours except for the details. There is much to be gained from your studies including "A course in Miracles". So glad you finally decided to share a bit about yourself. Again welcome, Joseph

Mike, Who can say? One could say the mind is the origin of human morality and empathy. As Paul points out above, it is different in different cultures. To me it can be tied back to God, but then not the traditional definition of God. I see God as the totality of all that is and i also see morality as an evolved human construct of mind. I have no way of knowing but i would certainly think that if Jesus was a real human, he experienced doubt and uncertainty. I am human and i experience both but i do not identify with either of them. They are merely thoughts that come and go and need not have any power over me. Joseph

In short answer to your question.... I personally do not believe so ..... and am not in fear of missing salvation as if i am in need of saving by a particular belief. Joseph

Welcome Thomas,, May we both grow in that experience. Joseph

minsocal, Sorry to hear about your cat. I think Hebrews 4 speaks much about this 'rest'. Essentially in Christianity in general ...."For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works" . It seems to me it is maintained by a knowing and trust in that which sustains us, and is well able to finish the work in us that was in a sense started. It seems to me it is necessary to "die daily" to self and in doing so one associates more with as Soma says "the watcher" than the flesh that is seldom experiencing that rest. There is to me a deep rest that is found in that state. Joseph