PaulS

It digressed at Post 48, Yvonne. Sometimes it happens.

I would like to second that, in case you were wondering about my comments, Raven. Certainly some do pray in public out of a genuine love for God. But I think we have all come across windbags that pray to make a point to onlookers/listeners (I think this was the case even in Jesus' day). I am curious whether people standing around a table holding hands and praying in a restaurant, are doing so as a way of genuinely giving thanks to God, or are they trying to make a point? Of course it could be the former, although I am sure there are many that would fit the latter. I personally have seen several that I am convinced fall into the latter category. But if it is the former, then I would still like to understand why they don't feel it is neccessary to adhere to Jesus' instructions about not praying in public and making a display of it? Just for the record, although I don't pray specifically myself, I don't think of prayer as either archaic, backwards, and/or without meaning. I belive it has meaning in some way to the people doing it, I think it may even possibly have some 'connection' to the universe, but I don't want to start sounding all new-agey. I hope you understand perhaps where I am coming from, without any offence. Cheers Paul

I agree Neon. Whilst I think some do it to show-off in a sense, I think others may do it because they feel they are 'standing up' for God in this evil world - "They're not afraid to worship God even in a secular restaurant, and they're going to show you that". Possibly others genuinely do it because they believe they are showing God the utmost respect. And I'm sure many are quietly hoping that their 'witness' will help win souls from Satan. But like you, what I don't get is why some Christians don't follow Jesus' commands concerning prayer. Like you mention, Jesus says to pray in private, to pray the Lord's prayer (I don't think he meant literally, but conceptually), and even says don't bother asking God for stuff because God knows what you need even before you ask. So why ask at all? It seems contradictory to me and I don't think I've ever heard a Christian explain why they don't adhere to Jesus' instruction. Cheers Paul

Is this the one, Raven? I Feel the Winds of God by Ralph Vaughan Williams I feel the winds of God today Today my sail I lift Though heavy, oft with drenching spray And torn with many a rift If hope but light the water�s crest And Christ my bark will use I�ll seek the seas at His behest And brave another cruise It is the wind of God that dries My vain regretful tears Until with braver thoughts shall rise The purer, brighter years If cast on shores of selfish ease Or pleasure I should be Lord, let me feel Thy freshening breeze And I�ll put back to sea If ever I forget Thy love And how that love was shown Lift high the blood red flag above It bears Thy Name alone Great Pilot of my onward way Thou wilt not let me drift I feel the winds of God today Today my sail I lift

Welcome, Wolf. I hope you enjoy it here. Cheers Paul

Not I. Glad you're back now anyway.

Attend as in a 'once off' or attend regularly? I don't see any harm in going once or twice to check it out further. They're philosophy is interesting, but that said, I agree with Myron that some interpretations seem a bit off the mark. Just who's mark - well that beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess. So if it is a line of thought that interests someone, and they are looking to join or participate in such a community, then who am I to say don't attend. I wouldn't though, because I'm not interested in becoming involved with organised religion again (at the moment anyway, maybe never). Cheers Paul

Of course, how else would God have gotten all the cooking and cleaning done! I'm sorry but I couldn't resist some pathetic, sexist humour. Please don't hold it against me.

Dutch, I am very happy for you. How wonderful. Cheers Paul

Thankyou all. I appreciate your thoughts. I am still developing mine. Cheers Paul

Thanks, Yvonne.

I started to PM the below to somebody in particular, but then thought I'd value comments from anybody and everybody here. I hope you don't mind, but it is helping me develop my thoughts. Consider yourselves my board to bounce things off, if you will. Please feel free to say anything you want for/against/to, what I say below. Thanks in advance Paul I don't know if I belive in a 'God' in any sense. I do know (or at least I think I know) that I am alive, here on Earth. I don't know if there is a reason why I am alive or if this is all just a natural event that somehow we cannot yet explain and account for. The mystery of Primary Cause leaves room for God in my opinion, as do people's personal experience, but I am yet to discover either that convinces me of 'God' per se. I think it is most likely that when I die I will know nothing of an existence afterwards, much like what I know about before I was born. However, maybe there is 'something else' to all this. I simply don't know. What I do know is that the Bible reports things (accurately or otherwise) about a man named Jesus (well, that's the name we've given him in English as I understand it). Many of these things seem good to me (not all though - I don't like the Hell stuff, which some people say may not be Jesus' words anyway, but even if they are, maybe he was wrong). Many of the sayings and metaphors attributed to Jesus resonate with me and I think there is a better life and better world to be gained by considering much of that attributed to Jesus. But he's not alone - I think there is much to be offered by other notable people (and some not so notable), religously-affiliated and/or secular. I figure I can have the best life possible by being in awe of nature (as it is simply awesome), by loving others (because it feels nice) and in being loved (even nicer); by doing my bit for justice in the world, my bit for helping others who need a hand (whether it's the next door neighbour or a country suffering famine), as well as not taking some things too seriously (such as what others think, stresses about money & material possessions, jobs and career advancement over family, etc). I choose to enjoy fellowship with my fellow humans (sometimes a little too much enjoyment leaves me feeling less than healthy the next day!), enjoy laughter, enjoy pain, enjoy sorrow, enjoy the experience - all of it. Well maybe appreciate is a better word than enjoy. Know that what really matters in the end is that I leave the world for those who follow after me (both family and unknowns) a better place, through my actions, how I raise my kids, how I love and help others, how I treat our environment. We all die and I expect once I'm gone, that's it. I don't need a legacy but I do think that if I can raise my kids to be loving, considerate people, then I have done my bit, for what it's worth.

RA, I don't attend any Church, but if I did it would be with a Church that identified and/or aligned itself publicly with Progressive Christianity. There are some listed on the PC.org homepage, or perhaps you could Google your area and PC. Cheers Paul

Welcome Reluctant Atheist, I look forward to your questions and the responses received. I was a fundamental Christian until about age 20 and then rejected it, and now 24 years later I am questioning and pondering 'God', whatever that may or may not mean. I have really enjoyed the forum here - I hope you do too. Cheers Paul

Okay, so reincarnation might not be your 'thing', but if you want a little fun this website says it can determine what higher or lower life form you may be reincarnated as. Apparently I'm heading towards returning as a Tiger. Grrrrrr. http://www.reincarnationstation.com/ Cheers Paul

That's what made the thought jump into my mind, Dutch, but obviously it's far from conclusive.

I would so love it that the day we died and stood before Jesus, he turned out to be gay. Imagine the faces!

Okay, so I probably know what many of you will say before I even ask this question, but I just wanted to share the experience (which I am sure is a common one for many of you - either currently or in the past) and see what comes of it. My good fundy friend told me a couple of years ago that Jesus' 2nd coming was definitely due within the next 30 years. Recently he mentioned that nobody knew when Jesus was going to come, so I questioned (via email) his previous statement concerning approximate arrival. In response I received no personal words but rather a 20 page expose from some recent conference he attended validating the Book of Micah as a fortelling of Jesus' return. A brief look indicates that this paper interprets a number of versus as pointing directly to 'signs of the times' when Jesus will return, but I haven't yet read the entire paper (I would have liked to have uploaded the PDF but it's 200kb). However, when I was next on the phone to this friend I mentioned that I would read his paper and draft any comments in an email. Not suprisingly, he said he wasn't interested in my arguments or what I might think of the paper - the paper (and by extension the Book of Micah and then the whole Bible) already outlined the 'truth' and basically that was that. I struggle with leaving things at that, although I recognise that there isn't really much choice. I guess I just have to 'let it be' and not worry about convincing people of what I think (I suspect that is more about me than about caring they know what I consider correct!). Have others here experienced/do experience this and how have you made peace/dealt with it? Cheers Paul

I second that, Yvonne. I find the preparedness to discuss all matter of opinions, in a safe environment, quite refreshing. I also think 'hats off' to the team that keep this place functioning so well. Cheers Paul

In Australia our prison population is massively over-represented by indigenous (Aboriginal) people. Clearly it is a socio economic issue. So whilst there is rehabilitation programs inside, once the prisoner returns to the same environment on the outside, the same problem still exists. It's not as clear cut as providing them with a job/skills, there is a cultural issue that regards all money and property as something to be shared equally - so some that are seeking to get ahead are often dragged down by family members that aren't prepared to do their share. What sort of violence against prisoners do you have in mind Deb? Gratuitous violence such as torture (physical or mental) has no place - but how should the prison authorities deal with violent prisoners who want to fight, who arm themselves in their cells and present a danger to cell-mates and/or prison guards? I don't know if you've ever seen a program called America's Hardest Prisons, but there are some very, very angry and dangerous people in the system. These are some of the issues concerning violence that I would like to consider. Like most, I am no fan of violence, but is there justified violence vs unneccessary violence? How does a non-violence stance actually work in the 'real' world? I appreciate all the repsonses so far.

I was prompted to post this question after a post by Russ (Quaker Way) outlining how he 'practices' being a christian which included his dedication towards non-violence. Whilst I like and support that ideal, I wonder how practical it is and if in fact violence is sometimes a 'neccessary evil'. Russ, I would welcome your input as well as anybody else. What I mean to say is that, like Russ, I would dearly love our governments to do everything literally possibly before engaging in a war or military action, but is it always so neat as that. When other people's lives are threatened, let's say the Tutsis and the Hutus where nearly 1 million Tutsis were slaughtered in a genocidal civil war. The UN and the world acted painfully slow, but would violent military action be justified if it meant stopping the greater slaughter? When I served as a police officer, violence was often the only way I could arrest some people. Whilst I would have loved it if every criminal simply peacefully handed themselves over to our custody, alas, they didn't always feel the same way. So I wonder how this sort of violence ties in with perhaps our ideals of a peaceful world. Should we simply let be even if it means that the violent people may in fact kill us and many others, or is violence justified in stopping them?

I typically don't identify myself with the 'C' word either, Norm. However in the context of this forum, I agree in principle with the 8 points and have no issue with those those who view Jesus as the way to God (who knows - they may even be right ), as I have no issue with those who identify as Jewish, Muslim, Biddhists, you name it. I guess I take the approach sung by Ben Harper in his song, 'Burn One Down' - My choice is what I choose to do And if I'm causing no harm It shouldn't bother you Your choice is who you choose to be And if your causin' no harm Then you're alright with me Of course, he's referring to smokin' some good ol' weed, but I metaphorically transfer it to 'life'. Like you, whilst I continue to feel welcome here I will enjoy, and feel thankful there is such a place. Cheers Paul

George, I was aware of the challenge to the Masoretic text but had read that the Dead Sea Scrolls could hardly be conclusive, considering the quality of the fragment. Having looked at a picture of it myself, I wondered how anyone could attribute accuracy whatsoever. But your post made me look into it again and I agree, it seems the Dead Sea Scrolls interpretation is now widely accepted as the most accurate for translating the verse as 'piercing/dug' rather than 'like a lion' (actually I've added the 'dug' to your post myself, as that does seem to also be the general consensus as opposed to only the word 'pierced'). Thanks Paul

I recently read a nice little book that made me feel glad - 'An Awakening Within' by a Joseph ...... (the name of the author escapes me ). An engaging short novel, it's an easy read which left me feeling 'at ease' that all is well. Cheers Paul

Phil, If this interests you, there are a number of websites that argue against Psalm 22 being a literal prediction of Jesus' death. This is taken from just one of them, that suggests Psalm 22 actually refers to King David in the real time. http://godlesshaven.com/articles/psalm22.html Apologists and believers have made Psalm 22 out to be a miraculously convincing prophecy, when there's really little of substance in it. Jesus' cry of "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" may be easily chalked up to the gospel authors having read Psalm 22. The mention of being scorned and despised by men can apply to David just as well as to Jesus. The dividing of garments and casting of lots can also be a metaphor for David's feeling of loss and loneliness, while incorporated literally by the gospel authors into their narratives. The piercing of the hands and feet referenced in verse 16 is one further example of the overblown attention to this passage, as AllAboutTheTruth.org once again illustrates: "...skeptics emphasize the fact that this psalm does not actually mention the act of crucifixion. This isn't surprising since execution of this type was not known in David's time, yet the Scripture tells of a time when this will take place." Is this really evidence? Claiming that it doesn't come out and say crucifixion, but still means it anyway? Depending on what translation or bible you read, Psalm 22:16 may be translated as "they have pierced my hands and feet", "like a lion they are at my hands and feet", "my hands and feet are shriveled", etc. A very thorough examination of the verse is available at Rejection of Pascal's Wager, suffice it to say that the reference to pierced hands and feet is quite disputable. And with that goes the only vestige of resemblance to crucifixion, which was not a very good one to begin with. If prophecy is inspired by God, couldn't God just have said crucifixion when he meant it? Nonetheless, the argument over what Hebrew word is used in Psalm 22:16 is making much ado about nothing. As we've seen, there is no reason to think Psalm 22 is prophecy at all, let alone that it speaks of Jesus. The passage has a very obvious original meaning, and apologists consistently fail to provide substantial evidence for their suggested secondary meaning. Admittedly, Psalm 22 does have striking similarities to the gospels, at face value, but it also has inconsistencies that are glossed over or dismissed as heavy metaphor whenever convenient to the apologist. It's always important to dig a little deeper than the surface, to make sure appearances are not deceiving. In the case of Psalm 22, it seems we have a mixed bag of misunderstanding and foul play. Cheers Paul