PaulS

Raven, I don't know about words of wisdom, but I can offer some of my own! Like Yvonne, I don't have much to offer than empathy. If it helps, know that you are not alone when you are feeling despondent. Many of us do at various times. I have had a period of despondency for the last 6 months when a new CEO started and decided to restructure things. It wasn't really a positive for me at the time, and I sort of went to pieces. But, I've been rattled before and I know that just breathing and continuing on will allow things to work out eventually. I know how hard it is to look at others and wish you had what they had. Perhaps though keep in mind that quite possibly they are doing the same looking at you. As you say, there is so much good in your life - perhaps you are a model for others. And do we ever really know what others have. One thing I've learnt is that some of the people who seem to have so much are actually hocked up to the eyeballs and wish they could escape the debt. If it at all helps, when I feel like this I just try to put it aside and concentrate on what needs doing. I foucs on real life things that need attention - work, home chores, projects - and just get on with them and it seesm that the despondent feelings lift. I wish you well. Paul

Welcome Rom, I probably could label myself as an agnostic and a Christian at the same time. Agnostic in the sense that I have no idea if a God exists, although I lean toward there maybe being 'something' behind all 'this'. And I do hesitatingly call myself a Christian in that I consider Jesus an exemplar for living a worthwhile and rewarding life (but I also think there are a number of others, it's just that I'm most familiar with Jesus). Of course that wouldn't go down so well with your poster who denounces Spong, but I'm pretty sure (and pleased) that it would meet Spong's criteria. You are welcome to stay as long or as short as you like. I hope you enjoy reading and particpating in the forum. There are a diverse range of views held here which always make for interesting discussion. Cheers Paul

Welcome Bea, You've found a good place. Cheers Paul

I would be interested in how you see it as that, Myron.

Yes muders are up, Myron. Instead of 27 last year, there were 30 this year according to the article you offered. Whilst that is a rise of 10 percent, I think a total of 3 murders doesn't present a huge case for things getting worse (and I mean no disrespect to anybody who was murdered, believe me). That statistic can be affected by a number of reasons. Teen suicides are up for straight kids too. Perhaps that's pointing to a societal issue deeper than sexual orientation? I obviously don't know how and what you feel Myron, but my comments are to the point being discussed and your comment that things are going backwards. I can't argue with you if you feel they are, you are entitled to your opinion of course. I just don't think the things we are seeing in society represent things going backward for people of LGBT orientation. Gay clubs used to be raided with the police arresting all patrons. Discussion of LGBT issues was taboo. Rarely would the words Christianity and homosexuality ever be used in the same sentence other than to condemn. Gay marriage wasn't even a consideration a couple of decades ago. Now compared to then is vastly different, although still massively unsatisfactory. Like I said, a lot more should happen and quickly too. That's why I think the issue should be discussed and put out there and fought for. If I had the power to implement full and equal rights and treatment to LGBT people overnight I would. Sorry if you feel you're not being listened to. I'm happy to discuss my points, but it seems a bit rough to be shut down because you say I don't know how you feel. Sorry you feel that way. Cheers Paul

Myron, With all respect, even one of the authors in the article you quote seems to argue that things are moving forward: "We feel that it's not an actual increase in violence but that there are reasons this kind of violence is being recognized for what it is," Jindasurat said. "One big reason is that now its more acceptable to talk about LGBT communities in general." I would agree that change isn't happening fast enough, but I really don't think society is heading backwards when it comes to LGBT issues. Cheers Paul

Welcome George & Annette, I hope you both do find a 'home' of sorts here. Cheers Paul Orstraylia

I'm not all that au fait with US politics George, but have read a bit about the Tea Party. I would be worried too. Any person or group financing a politicians expects something in return.

Do you need a formal qualification to be an apologist? I would say my mother and sister are apologists.

I reckon there would be Mormons who are loving and caring, and I reckon there would be Mormons who are liars, hypocrites, and fakes. In fact, I would say that was representative across all religions, communities and society in general. I think the points made by Hal may be worth at least considering, but I suspect, as history seems to suggest, that they will turn out to be 'conspiracy theories' without any genuine substance. That said, it would be naive to think that any political candidate is actually 'their own man' (or woman) entirely. They have parties and benefactors to keep happy, and sometimes compromises and concessions are made.

There's also the discrepancy about Jesus not being in the 'belly of the earth' for three days and three nights, which apologists seem to have to work hard with arguments about different calendars etc to come up with a reason why in their eyes Matthew's scripture was actually fulfilled (unconvincingly in my opinion). I think it's mainly literalists and their opposite that need to be concerned with this discrepancy. The discrepancy is simply not an issue if one doesn't worry about taking the narratives literally. Like Dutch alludes to (IMO), it makes more sense that the actualy discrepancy is explained by recognising that John was linking into the Paschal Lamb whilst the Synoptics were linking Jesus to the Exodus, so the discrepancy stands, but who cares.

I do sometimes think that it would have been nice to know, when I rejected fundamental christianity at the age of 19, that there indeed was a 'middle ground', rather than feeling the need to fully reject God due to no longer being able to accept those beliefs. Indeed it wasn't until over 20 years later that I even learned that there was such a thing as PC, and I guess before that it was simply known by others who held onto God and spirituality, whilst leaving behind literalism and fundamentalism. Even if such a thing only served as a temporary place of healing from the trauma of leaving behind all that you believed with your heart, I think it would be a good thing.

Without God, or without the word God? She explains her lack of the use of the word God and then summarises: That just about perfectly explains why I don’t use the word “god” anymore. Over the course of millennia, humans have understood God, with a capital "g," to mean, pretty much, a theistic being that has characteristics that give it power over humanity in some way. Within the church, however, over the past few decades it has become as difficult to understand as scientific technical terms used indiscriminately in different contexts. No longer having a universally understood definition, it is impossible to tell what one person means when they use it in one context and whether that is different from how another person might use it in a different context. Indeed, in different Christian communities, even in the same community, people have developed wildly divergent understandings; god can mean everything from that theistic being it once described to the feeling we have when our parents or our partners or our children act in ways that make our hearts just want to burst with joy. Theistically, it can mean the guy with the white beard, or an amorphous spirit that resides within us all and which can yet can act autonomously apart from us. Non-theistically, it can be a collection of values chosen by a community to guide it in right living or the void of silence into which one can enter to come to oneness with oneself and, through that, with the universe. There is no single meaning for the word god.

Welcome Houston. You were just getting started with your theological education the year I was born! I hope you enjoy participating here. Cheers Paul

Perhaps this is appropriate here - in a special recommendation announcement emailed out by Jack Spong just yesterday, he recommends a book and a course. The book just happens to be called Amen: What Prayer Can Mean In A World Beyond Belief . Product Description Prayer is an essential part of the daily lives of many people. Some believe it connects them with God, a cosmic force, the universe or life itself, and that it can change circumstances or bring them comfort, protection and peace. Others engage in the act of prayer as a traditional ritual from which they neither demand nor expect results. Many who pray cannot imagine living without it. For many others, however, prayer has no significance in their lives at all. Having left a practice they once knew or matured without religious intervention or instruction, the idea of praying regularly might be considered by these individuals as nothing more than a waste of time. In Amen, Gretta Vosper, United Church minister and author of the controversial bestseller With or Without God, examines these diverse positions in the light of the harsh realities of unanswered prayer, the secular critique of supernatural intervention and the need for a deep sense of ownership for the suffering in the world. With characteristic honesty, she calls the reader to submit the tradition of prayer to the test of integrity. Can we draw from it useful principles for addressing human and global needs? Or is it safe, and maybe even more effective, to get up from our knees and live out the answers we seek? About the Author GRETTA VOSPER, author of the national bestseller With or Without God, is pastor of West Hill United Church in Toronto, and founder of the Canadian Centre for Progressive Christianity. She received her master of divinity from Queen’s Theological College in 1990 and was ordained in 1992. Vosper is a widely sought-after speaker and is regularly interviewed in the national media. Visit her at progressivechristianity.ca. Cheers Paul

Perhaps this is appropriate here - in a special recommendation announcement emailed out by Jack Spong just yesterday, he recommends a book and a course. The book just happens to be called Amen: What Prayer Can Mean In A World Beyond Belief . Product Description Prayer is an essential part of the daily lives of many people. Some believe it connects them with God, a cosmic force, the universe or life itself, and that it can change circumstances or bring them comfort, protection and peace. Others engage in the act of prayer as a traditional ritual from which they neither demand nor expect results. Many who pray cannot imagine living without it. For many others, however, prayer has no significance in their lives at all. Having left a practice they once knew or matured without religious intervention or instruction, the idea of praying regularly might be considered by these individuals as nothing more than a waste of time. In Amen, Gretta Vosper, United Church minister and author of the controversial bestseller With or Without God, examines these diverse positions in the light of the harsh realities of unanswered prayer, the secular critique of supernatural intervention and the need for a deep sense of ownership for the suffering in the world. With characteristic honesty, she calls the reader to submit the tradition of prayer to the test of integrity. Can we draw from it useful principles for addressing human and global needs? Or is it safe, and maybe even more effective, to get up from our knees and live out the answers we seek? About the Author GRETTA VOSPER, author of the national bestseller With or Without God, is pastor of West Hill United Church in Toronto, and founder of the Canadian Centre for Progressive Christianity. She received her master of divinity from Queen’s Theological College in 1990 and was ordained in 1992. Vosper is a widely sought-after speaker and is regularly interviewed in the national media. Visit her at progressivechristianity.ca. Cheers Paul

I think the point was Hornet, that whilst it doesn't have to be a tool for evangelizing, Neon's experience (and mine) is that there are some who do use it that way at times. Your purpose may be to simply give thanks, but in the context of a group standing around a table and holding hands, it was questioned whether sometimes that may be more about display than about genuine thanks for thanks' sake.

I think you meant to type wasn't, judging by the rest of your post, so thanks. Cheers Paul

Thanks, George. No Probs.

Well, I guess I am just curious, George. But I don't really care enough about the matter than to do what I have already done here - Make a couple of comments in discussion, and leave it at that. Cheers Paul

It digressed at Post 48, Yvonne. Sometimes it happens.

I would like to second that, in case you were wondering about my comments, Raven. Certainly some do pray in public out of a genuine love for God. But I think we have all come across windbags that pray to make a point to onlookers/listeners (I think this was the case even in Jesus' day). I am curious whether people standing around a table holding hands and praying in a restaurant, are doing so as a way of genuinely giving thanks to God, or are they trying to make a point? Of course it could be the former, although I am sure there are many that would fit the latter. I personally have seen several that I am convinced fall into the latter category. But if it is the former, then I would still like to understand why they don't feel it is neccessary to adhere to Jesus' instructions about not praying in public and making a display of it? Just for the record, although I don't pray specifically myself, I don't think of prayer as either archaic, backwards, and/or without meaning. I belive it has meaning in some way to the people doing it, I think it may even possibly have some 'connection' to the universe, but I don't want to start sounding all new-agey. I hope you understand perhaps where I am coming from, without any offence. Cheers Paul

I agree Neon. Whilst I think some do it to show-off in a sense, I think others may do it because they feel they are 'standing up' for God in this evil world - "They're not afraid to worship God even in a secular restaurant, and they're going to show you that". Possibly others genuinely do it because they believe they are showing God the utmost respect. And I'm sure many are quietly hoping that their 'witness' will help win souls from Satan. But like you, what I don't get is why some Christians don't follow Jesus' commands concerning prayer. Like you mention, Jesus says to pray in private, to pray the Lord's prayer (I don't think he meant literally, but conceptually), and even says don't bother asking God for stuff because God knows what you need even before you ask. So why ask at all? It seems contradictory to me and I don't think I've ever heard a Christian explain why they don't adhere to Jesus' instruction. Cheers Paul

Is this the one, Raven? I Feel the Winds of God by Ralph Vaughan Williams I feel the winds of God today Today my sail I lift Though heavy, oft with drenching spray And torn with many a rift If hope but light the water�s crest And Christ my bark will use I�ll seek the seas at His behest And brave another cruise It is the wind of God that dries My vain regretful tears Until with braver thoughts shall rise The purer, brighter years If cast on shores of selfish ease Or pleasure I should be Lord, let me feel Thy freshening breeze And I�ll put back to sea If ever I forget Thy love And how that love was shown Lift high the blood red flag above It bears Thy Name alone Great Pilot of my onward way Thou wilt not let me drift I feel the winds of God today Today my sail I lift

Welcome, Wolf. I hope you enjoy it here. Cheers Paul